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  #1  
Old February 23rd, 2022, 10:37 AM
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Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

It seems pretty clear to me that WotC didn't understand the heroscape lore when they factioned several of their units. In addition, some of the Classicscape units really belong in Aquilla or Valkrill, but are mis-factioned because those 2 factions didn't initially exist. I'm planning to make custom cards to re-faction the following units, & I'm wondering if there's broader support for this idea (or if I missed an obvious one).

Braxas (Vydar) --> Aquilla. Butterfly wings and poison breath scream Aquilla. Vydar can get a mech-dragon at some point

Frost Giant of Morh (Utgar) --> Jandar. All the ice units in the game are Jandar. All the Vikings are Jandar. The Frost Giant sticks out like a sore thumb in Utgar, it has to be one of the ugliest cards I've ever seen. Bring the big ice viking to his proper home.

Shurrak (Utgar) --> Jandar. Shurrak is a giant Viking. Just look at that big long beard. He belongs in Jandar

Ice Troll Beserker (Utgar) --> Jandar. Now that we've re-assigned the frost giant, it becomes clear that the ice troll must follow. Now we've got a very thematic ice army for Jandar alongside Nilfheim & the Dzu-Teh

Ogre Warhulk (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Ogre Pulverizer (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Torin (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Feral Troll (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Valkrill has a weird Utgar adjacent/outcasts of Utgar vibe to it and all these units fit that. I can't put my finger on why, but they do. Maybe it's the Brown color of their skin, or maybe it's bc Valkrill was announced at a similar time to the DND units so it has a lot of guys that fit that flavor. Regardless, I think these 4 units belong there.

Fen Hydra (Utgar) --> Ullar
Sahaugin Raider (Utgar) --> Ullar
The Fen Hydra is what got this whole thing started. The idea that this snake beast isn't in Ullar is egregious. He fits so well thematically with the vipers and with Charos. After that, the Sahaugin raider was an easy choice to follow suit - amphibians, especially green ones, just beg to be a part of Ullar.

What do you all think? Would you support these changes? What others would you add?
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 11:04 AM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

Fun post! I'm curious to see what others say. I don't agree with all of yours, but most look good.

I've never thought the dwarves were a natural fit in Aquilla. Aquilla is the home of nature's nasties, and those who fit within that milieu. Dwarves are classically trained military and/or the plunderers of nature. Vydar or Einar would have been better fits, I think, but Aquilla needed its ranks filled, so there they went.

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Old February 23rd, 2022, 12:33 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post
It seems pretty clear to me that WotC didn't understand the heroscape lore when they factioned several of their units. In addition, some of the Classicscape units really belong in Aquilla or Valkrill, but are mis-factioned because those 2 factions didn't initially exist. I'm planning to make custom cards to re-faction the following units, & I'm wondering if there's broader support for this idea (or if I missed an obvious one).

Braxas (Vydar) --> Aquilla. Butterfly wings and poison breath scream Aquilla. Vydar can get a mech-dragon at some point

Frost Giant of Morh (Utgar) --> Jandar. All the ice units in the game are Jandar. All the Vikings are Jandar. The Frost Giant sticks out like a sore thumb in Utgar, it has to be one of the ugliest cards I've ever seen. Bring the big ice viking to his proper home.

Shurrak (Utgar) --> Jandar. Shurrak is a giant Viking. Just look at that big long beard. He belongs in Jandar

Ice Troll Beserker (Utgar) --> Jandar. Now that we've re-assigned the frost giant, it becomes clear that the ice troll must follow. Now we've got a very thematic ice army for Jandar alongside Nilfheim & the Dzu-Teh

Ogre Warhulk (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Ogre Pulverizer (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Torin (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Feral Troll (Utgar) --> Valkrill
Valkrill has a weird Utgar adjacent/outcasts of Utgar vibe to it and all these units fit that. I can't put my finger on why, but they do. Maybe it's the Brown color of their skin, or maybe it's bc Valkrill was announced at a similar time to the DND units so it has a lot of guys that fit that flavor. Regardless, I think these 4 units belong there.

Fen Hydra (Utgar) --> Ullar
Sahaugin Raider (Utgar) --> Ullar
The Fen Hydra is what got this whole thing started. The idea that this snake beast isn't in Ullar is egregious. He fits so well thematically with the vipers and with Charos. After that, the Sahaugin raider was an easy choice to follow suit - amphibians, especially green ones, just beg to be a part of Ullar.

What do you all think? Would you support these changes? What others would you add?



I agree with most of this, I can see the Frost Giant being Jandar and Hydra being Ullar, except Shurrak since he has a more villanous look and so I think he should stay Utgar.


I would add:
Zombies, Shades, and Phantom Knights should be moved from Utgar to Valkrill
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 02:18 PM
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DND and Other Thoughts

One of the big reasons a lot of DND units seem to mismatch is because in that lore their alignments are set (e.g. Frost Giants are evil in 4e DND and Jandar is decidedly not; I don't love DND's alignment system though so I'm sympathetic to complaints about a second order effect).

Matching color to general has never been something I've found a compelling argument, but I'm also much less of aesthete than others. As for what fits with the generals, their themes are annoyingly between Hogwarts houses (where there's not a ton of canon but a lot of fanon on what makes something what) and Magic the Gathering colors (which are really well defined philosophically) and so there's a lot of flexibility in people's visions of what goes where once you move into something where there's a lot more wiggle room.

I do think it being a good vs evil battle with a couple of factions changing sides is okay from a story point (and makes a ton of sense for the age this was marketed at) but it makes it much harder to examine characters with nuance. If I had my way, generals would have a couple ideals that defined them without imposing a moral value. I find that much more interesting to pick apart what characters should go where. As is, they just come across to me as Jandar = good people, Ullar = fantasy good people, Aquilla = good people with a wild side, Einar = by the book (or code) people, Vydar = morally grey people, Utgar = evil people, Valkrill = evil people with a wild side. Unless something really steps outside of those lines, it's not going to bug me too much about where they are. I guess I need a stronger theme to feel stronger and I feel like Heroscape has a much looser theme than I would like if I were designing it.

~Dysole, figuring that looser theme is part of the fun for other people
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 03:13 PM
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Re: DND and Other Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
One of the big reasons a lot of DND units seem to mismatch is because in that lore their alignments are set (e.g. Frost Giants are evil in 4e DND and Jandar is decidedly not; I don't love DND's alignment system though so I'm sympathetic to complaints about a second order effect).

Matching color to general has never been something I've found a compelling argument, but I'm also much less of aesthete than others. As for what fits with the generals, their themes are annoyingly between Hogwarts houses (where there's not a ton of canon but a lot of fanon on what makes something what) and Magic the Gathering colors (which are really well defined philosophically) and so there's a lot of flexibility in people's visions of what goes where once you move into something where there's a lot more wiggle room.

I do think it being a good vs evil battle with a couple of factions changing sides is okay from a story point (and makes a ton of sense for the age this was marketed at) but it makes it much harder to examine characters with nuance. If I had my way, generals would have a couple ideals that defined them without imposing a moral value. I find that much more interesting to pick apart what characters should go where. As is, they just come across to me as Jandar = good people, Ullar = fantasy good people, Aquilla = good people with a wild side, Einar = by the book (or code) people, Vydar = morally grey people, Utgar = evil people, Valkrill = evil people with a wild side. Unless something really steps outside of those lines, it's not going to bug me too much about where they are. I guess I need a stronger theme to feel stronger and I feel like Heroscape has a much looser theme than I would like if I were designing it.

~Dysole, figuring that looser theme is part of the fun for other people

See I don't think D&D alignment should mean much in Heroscape. For me, the Scape themes are less about 'alignment' and more about the planets or types of soldiers a certain general recruited. Generally, Jandar gets the "good" guys, but he also gets big ice monsters (Nilfheim doesn't particularly seem like a good guy, for instance). I view it more as which planets/universes a particular general exploited most for their units. Valkrill fits with undead, Aquilla is wild nature, etc etc. It's more about aesthetic consistency for me than anything else.
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 03:14 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

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Originally Posted by Master Roshi View Post

I agree with most of this, I can see the Frost Giant being Jandar and Hydra being Ullar, except Shurrak since he has a more villanous look and so I think he should stay Utgar.


I would add:
Zombies, Shades, and Phantom Knights should be moved from Utgar to Valkrill
Definitely! The undead all being Valkrill is a great idea. And then the non-grut orcs should be, which is why I want the Ogres in there. Btw, do you know of where I can find the trading card template? That's probably where I'd like to redesign these cards
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 05:01 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

I'd go earlier and say Templars definitely shouldn't be Jandar.
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Old February 23rd, 2022, 05:26 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

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Originally Posted by Splash View Post
I'd go earlier and say Templars definitely shouldn't be Jandar.
Templars should be Einar for sure.


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Old February 23rd, 2022, 06:28 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Roshi View Post

I agree with most of this, I can see the Frost Giant being Jandar and Hydra being Ullar, except Shurrak since he has a more villanous look and so I think he should stay Utgar.


I would add:
Zombies, Shades, and Phantom Knights should be moved from Utgar to Valkrill
Definitely! The undead all being Valkrill is a great idea. And then the non-grut orcs should be, which is why I want the Ogres in there. Btw, do you know of where I can find the trading card template? That's probably where I'd like to redesign these cards
Would you add Cyprien and the other Vampires to Valkrill? I can see that as well as carrying over Cypriens skeletons

Last edited by Master Roshi; February 23rd, 2022 at 08:22 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2022, 12:26 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

It seems to me that most generals end up summoning specific things for one of 4 different reasons:

1. Geographical – this is why each faction has its own kyrie (or doesn’t) and certain things like Dzu-Teh, or the Shades of Bleakewoode, which are just endemic in a specific general’s home turf.

2. Tactical – this is why Utgar privileges things that are heat resistant and Jandar favors things that are cold resistant. It wouldn’t work well if their units couldn’t function in their key territorial holdings.

3. Personal Taste – this is why Utgar favors the Marro, Jandar favors Knights, and Ullar favors Elves. Each general has a particular character that leads them to recruit either like-minded troops, or troops that favor their specific tactics.

4. Everyone else got one – this is why they all have cowboys, ninjas, and dragons. Keeping up with the Joneses, I guess.

The first two are generally pretty easy to figure out. The third is what seems to me to cause the most problems. I’m going to try to express what I see as the core of each general’s personal philosophy and why I think specific units should, or should not, belong in that general’s army.

(I also want to mention, as an aside, that it’s pretty clear that the designers kind of intended the whole D&D thing to be its own sub-game. The units are different, the structure of the game is different, the way the generals work is different, it’s almost a different game – like Marvel, or the other planned outside IP mastersets. However, because the units were far more compatible, we treat it like it’s all part of the same canon. A lot of confusion probably stems from this, but because it’s the way things have been done for a long time, we have to deal with it as a historical convention – even if my preference would be to treat them separately.)

Jandar wants to be the hero. He picks units that are, to him, the uncomplicated heroes of their stories. The US in WWII, knights in shining armor, the US Continental Army, the -crons, etc. He’s going to be the good guy who uses the good guys to save the world. Saving the world, to Jandar, means protecting the status quo. This whole wellspring business was a mistake as far as Jandar is concerned and he would like to put a stop to the whole thing. This is why Thormun allies with him.

Ullar is the other status-quo general. We know very little about his character, actually. He is about nature, but not of nature. Think a manicured garden. He is also one of the only generals widely using overt magic pre-D&D. Unlike Jandar, who fights head-on, Ullar seems far more willing to use trickery and many of his units require more roundabout strategies to be fully effective. I think it’s telling that so few customs end up in Ullar – he just wasn’t well-defined.

Vydar wants to be left alone. He’s the general of secrets and trickery. He also has all the cool sci-fi toys. There’s a real irony to Vydar in that he has the most potent summoning power, but he’s tactically and territorially the weakest general. His major motivation seems to be vengeance following him not being left along by Utgar. He wants big guns and stealthy units. He is fighting a guerrilla war, after all.

Einar wants to rule and be loved. There’s some serious Louis XIV vibes around Einar. Total opulence, total control. He wants unquestioningly loyal and regimented soldiers who will execute his battle plans without error. He seems to favor units that are defensive and reactive. He believes in obedience to law and freedom from tyranny. He’s the least complicated, in my opinion.

Utgar wants to rule. Period. He wants to win and wants to be in charge of it all and does not care what it costs. This is why he uses scorched-earth units like the polluting marro and unreliable units with high firepower like the Deathwalkers. His gamble seems to be that if he manages to conquer Valhalla, it’s worth any cost because he can set it right again afterwards.

Aquilla only got a few units before the D&D sets. While most of her units seem to be animals, or otherwise elemental in nature, the dwarves are a noticeable sticking point. Inevitably, with the small sample size, it comes down to emphasizing one thing or another in Aquilla. What we do know is that she is interested primarily in defending her territory from Utgar incursion. I favor the un-veneered, savage nature angle on Aquilla if only because that distinguishes her most from the others.

Valkrill is chaotic, destructive nihilism. While he only got a handful of units at the end of the D&D sets, we have a pretty good idea of what he is about. He was created as another high risk, high reward tool by Utgar. Valkrill only wants to destroy, not to destroy in order to build like Utgar. This is why he favors units that are cruel, bizarre, and (in some cases) literally pure evil. Valkrill also strikes me as uncomplicated.

Keep in mind, these are only my takes, although I have based all of this on the available units and information provided by the game. I also mean absolutely no disrespect to the original creators, or to subsequent fan creators when I express skepticism about a unit’s general assignment. I am no expert and these are only my humble opinions, it’s all of you who have done the hard work of design – the easy job is that of critic.


Reassignments:

Original Units:

Master Win Chiu Woo – Ullar
I mean, come on.

D&D Units:

Erevan Sunshadow – Ullar
He’s an elf-adjacent wizard who shoots fire. He’s got Ullar written all over him.

Master of the Hunt – Ullar
Firbolgs are nature spirits, he’s Bold, he’s a hunter. Not sure what the reasoning for him being Einar was in the first place.

Torin – Einar
He’s a cyclops, he has a passive defensive power. Either we accept Gurei-Oni and this guy goes in Einar, or we reject Gurei Oni and Gurei Oni goes in Utgar. Torin just doesn’t feel like Utgar’s style in the way Gurei Oni matches Einar’s tactics, though.

Kurrok the Elementalist – ???
Kurrok seems weird. His personality is Devout, he uses elemental magic, he’s from a militaristic society (in D&D lore), and he’s a non-goblin goblinoid. All these point to different generals, none of which are Utgar. With no bio, it’s really hard to tell what’s going on here.

Frost Giant of Morh – Jandar
He’s ice themed, viking themed, his personality is fearless, engages in direct combat without tricks, and fights to the last. There’s nothing tying him to Utgar except D&D alignment, which isn’t expressed on the card.

Fen Hydra – Aquilla
It’s a vicious swamp/jungle creature with animal intelligence.


VC Units:

- quick Aquilla note. It’s clear C3V has a slightly different take on Aquilla than I would and that’s ok. But I wouldn’t necessarily have gone in these same directions given the starting material. As such, I’ll be skipping her C3V units – it’s totally a matter of taste. If you accept the C3V canon, it does move a few things into Aquilla that wouldn’t otherwise be there and a few other things out that I would put there. For example, Gladiators and -trons would be in, while Fen Hydra would stay Utgar.

Bol – Utgar
It’s just not clear why Bol should be in Aquilla. Nothing in the bio or mechanics seems to want to move him away from the other ankle-shanking goblins. While the bio gives some explanation, it kind of begs the question why this isn’t happening more with Utgar’s goblins.


The Einar beakfaces – Vydar
I think most of the beakfaces would be more at home in Vydar. They’re sneaky, tricky, flighty.


Prince al’Kahora – Einar or Ullar
The loyalty, the mystical, nature-inspired fighting style, the new planet. Just seems weird for Jandar without a lot more information about the structure and narrative of Arctorus. Just something a little “off”

Lilja – Vydar
Isn’t Vydar the guy who likes golems? Just feels like it’s missing a little something to justify it. Maybe I’m missing a bio somewhere.

The Robin Hood guys – Aquilla
If we’re going with an Aquilla = rebels and resistance kind of thing, not sure what makes anti- taxation rebels more Ullar.

Otar – Aquilla
I guess I could buy Utgar if it was clear what region in Valhalla he hailed from.

Zhen Yuan – Aquilla or Ullar
Either he’s a monk, so he naturally gravitates toward Ullar, or he’s anti-imperial resistance, in which case he gravitates toward Aquilla. Doesn’t feel married to Utgar.

12th Caucasus Rifles – Einar or Jandar
I’m just not seeing a strong Vydar connection here.

53rd Carolina Sharpshooters – Einar
They were soldiers whose major claim to fame was their spectacular discipline.

And that's about it as far as re-assignments go. Obviously, I have my own design instincts. I work very much off of precedent, both thematically and mechanically, so if something was established one way early one, I'm fairly resistant to major departures unless there's a greater thematic or mechanical reason to break that precedent. There are a few units that I feel don't have a strong place anywhere, so where they are might as well be where they are (Eltahale), and a few units that explore subthemes that just never got fully realized in the original run (Sudema).

Also, I realize I haven't been plugged in to the community for most of the time I've been playing this game, so there may very well be established traditions, or old conversations that I'm not aware of that justify the allegiances of some of the units I pointed out. This might be especially true among my VC picks, which is why I almost didn't even list them.
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Old May 9th, 2022, 03:21 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post
Braxas (Vydar) --> Aquilla. Butterfly wings and poison breath scream Aquilla.
I don't have strong feelings about whether Braxas does or doesn't get moved, but I do know that wherever she ends up, the Black Wyrmling must follow.

Quote:
Vydar can get a mech-dragon at some point
If only there was a gorgeous, $3 Starfinder dragon wielding a big honkin' pulse rifle. Seriously though, I hope some serious discussion is given to whether Nordlung would make sense in Vydar's ranks. Just because the dragon is white doesn't mean it has to be Jandar. Dragonkin are offshoots of dragons that have been strongly anthropomorphized, and are very tech-savvy. It's worth some fair consideration.

Quote:
Frost Giant of Morh (Utgar) ... has to be one of the ugliest cards I've ever seen.
The ugliness is exacerbated by the sculpt and paint job. Unfortunately this is one of the most ridiculous-looking figures in the classic canon, and one I just can't seem to force myself to take seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I've never thought the dwarves were a natural fit in Aquilla. ... but Aquilla needed its ranks filled, so there they went.
+1 and +1.


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Old May 9th, 2022, 04:01 PM
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Re: Fixing Mis-Factioned Units

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Originally Posted by Godchep View Post
Master Win Chiu Woo – Ullar
I mean, come on.
And the Razzie award for Biggest Compromise to Support a Marketing Scheme goes to... Master Woo!

Quote:
The Einar beakfaces – Vydar
I think most of the beakfaces would be more at home in Vydar. They’re sneaky, tricky, flighty.
Well, Vydar's logo is two raptor talons....



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