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Old January 5th, 2015, 10:31 PM
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Power Creep Customs: Open Challange to the Custom Community

If you are looking to create a unit that “feels” like it belongs in classic scape, is unique and will be accepted by others playing classic scape the following are a compiled list of common comments among the custom thread. I guess it is a list of way not to “Baby” your custom, to avoid making over powered. Many of these points are a great starting point for avoiding common pitfalls for your custom. I myself have repeatedly had to alter customs after realizing that my unit is too good, because I wanted to see my customs shine, even if that meant that other units would be duller for it.

If you, however, are Posting your customs to share your creativity and don’t care about wide acceptance, more power to you. If you want to create a game of My little Pony scape with Crazy powers, cards without points and simple rules so your “little sister” will play Heroscape with you, go for it! Don’t feel like all your units have to fit into Vanilla scape. Pokemon Scape, Super hero scape, @Grishnakh unique rules all march to the beat of their own drum and the custom community is better for it.

If you still want to create Vanilla customs:

Dear Creators,

I think it is time to step back from the drawing board. Put the pen/tablet down and think about what you are doing. Frankly some of your customs are too good. They are simply too good and are making old units feel bad. Sure we can price for power, but when that power pushes units out of the game, that custom is being a bully, and no one wants to be a bully. To help I have weaved together a few guidelines form the various threads in this forum:

1. No more bonding. If your unit cannot stand on its own two legs it has no business standing on a heroscape field. Bonding is great but it more impressive when a hero is worth drafting on their own.

2. Limit Attack. Double attack, triple attack, multiple attacks, where does it end? Let's try to think about creating a figure with more of a one shot, one wound mentality. This is not to go to the extreme of One shot one kill, since that would be an opposite extreme.

3. Un-reliable D20. In classic scape most D20'ers were threat figures. This means their power was a threat, not a sure thing. As an opponent I should have to think about the chance of the power kicking in and then make a decision, not believe the power will kick in and act as any reasonable person would (i.e. very predictably). If you are making a D20 roll be 11 or higher that is 50%, that is not a chance hit that is a fairly likely outcome. Swingy figures make for great stories and memorable games, which is way better than always winning in my book.

4. Rock, Paper... There should be something that will tear your figure apart. There should always be a draft choice that I would make as a counter to your custom, otherwise I'm stupid not to draft your custom.

5. More Cheerleaders, Defenders and niche. We have tons of sharks, bread and butter and menacers and those a fun to play. It is a lot more tricky to design a good cheer leader that you will want to field. (Raelin Notwithstanding)

6. Choice. Heroscape is about choice. I want to play figures that offer strategic choice, not determined outcomes. Do I play out the elementals, or summon a new one? Do I bond with Migol or take the extra move. Do I engage with more Mohicans or fall back for range. Do I wait or move then fire? All are good choices. Your figure should get me thinking, get me excited about the next round.

7. Clump them up. The romans are a great target for DW9000, however most other units you are always better to spread them out. Getting your custom squads to provide the decision of staying in formation or spreading out is a great way to provide innovation. More formation powers would be very interesting. Really does your aura have to be 2 or more clear sight spaces? Are you only leaving that gap to keep your figures from falling prey to area of effect special powers? You are babying your custom! Let them die like heroes, not spread out like cowards.

8. One less power. I have seen it mentioned before, but get the flavor of your custom from the stats and try not to jam too many powers/words on a card. Some of the best customs have 1 or 2 powers. At worst they have three powers with two of them being super simple. Make it short and sweet, and the card will feel elegant not bloated.

9. No more 4/4. We all know 4 defense or 4 attack is when a figure gets good. Hell there is some crazy math in the the Theoryscape library that does a great job proving it. However, can you make a figure good with 1, 2, or 3 on their stats? What about 6, 7 or 8? Can you make them balanced? Change up the 4/4 and really get creative.

10. Weaknesses. Some of the best units/most interesting units have weaknesses. Marcus and Sir Hawthorn always make for a tense game. Having a weakness really can make for some creative play and requires detail strategy. When the player has to ask themselves how they will combat their own failings, it adds choice and diversity.

I think making Balanced but interesting customs is way better than building that next triple A unit. When I have to spend time trying to figure out the best combination of units or the worst matchups I might face, it really gets me deeper into the game. As much as I dislike Raelin, rats and Q9, but trying to figure out the best assassin, exterminator and can opener can be as much fun as actually playing the game.

Heroscape is as much about “deck building” as it is about rolling dice and moving figures on the map. I believe the custom creator’s first order of business is to add to the creative options available, demanding creativity from players to figure out synergies and counter drafts for themselves.

Sincerely, wriggz

PS: Much of this has been said by Members with much more "custom cred" than I have, but as an avid "Theoryscaper" I felt that putting it all in once place was a valuable endeavor.


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Last edited by wriggz; January 6th, 2015 at 08:22 AM.
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  #2  
Old January 5th, 2015, 10:36 PM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

Thanks for posting this

It's actually very helpful to look and see what is being overdone and what can be done to do better so that our customs. I'm new to making mine and I don't want to make them too powerful so I'll try to adhere to some of this advice, especially the top three ^^
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Old January 5th, 2015, 10:45 PM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

Or everyone can just make customs to fit their own needs and desires... if your custom works for your group, then it's the greatest custom you can make IMOO. These 'hey do customs how I say!' threads always leave a bad taste in my mouth.


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Old January 5th, 2015, 11:06 PM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

I will agree with most of the points, but I guess it's too be expected from most Customs. The only thing Custom Creators (particularly the C3V/SoV) fear more than another Q9 on their hands is another DW7000 taking up space. Since they want to see play in competitive 'Scape, Multi-Attacks/Bonding is the easy out.

It's not all bad though. I had the pleasure of playing with Akumaken not too long ago, a non-bonding single attack Hero, and I must say he was excellent fun. (I will say I'm sick of 3 power units tho... -___-)

~TAF, Jarekingly

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Old January 5th, 2015, 11:51 PM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

You would hate C3G!

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Old January 6th, 2015, 12:17 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

Maybe I'm missing the point of what you're saying and you're talking about individual custom designs, but most of this seems pretty off-base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
I think it is time to step back from the drawing board. Put the pen/tablet down and think about what you are doing. Frankly some of your customs are too good. They are simply too good and are making old units feel bad.
This just seems a bit odd to me when we are still playing a game where the best unit was released in the first set. I agree that many people's individual designs push the power curve quite often. But I don't see any tendency in that direction in the VC stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
No more bonding. If your unit cannot stand on its own two legs it has no business standing on a heroscape field. Bonding is great but it more impressive when a hero is worth drafting on their own.
To give up all bonding would run counter to the history of the game. From wave 1, until the very last D&D wave, bonding has been a recurrent feature of the game. You might not like bonding but really, that's just your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
2. Limit Attack. Double attack, triple attack, multiple attacks, where does it end? Let's try to think about creating a figure with more of a one shot, one wound mentality. This is not to go to the extreme of One shot one kill, since that would be an opposite extreme.
Again, multi-attack or area attacks have been around as long as the game. It's a simple and obvious way to level heroes and squads, particularly the non-bonders. Are you saying a design like Rachiem should be limited to a single attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Un-reliable D20. In classic scape most D20'ers were threat figures. This means their power was a threat, not a sure thing. As an opponent I should have to think about the chance of the power kicking in and then make a decision, not believe the power will kick in and act as any reasonable person would (i.e. very predictably). If you are making a D20 roll be 11 or higher that is 50%, that is not a chance hit that is a fairly likely outcome. Swingy figures make for great stories and memorable games, which is way better than always winning in my book.
... again, the history of the game says otherwise. Braxas and TKN are both 8+. Black Wyrms are 11+. Of course, most d20 cutoffs are higher. Same is true for most customs, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
4. Rock, Paper... There should be something that will tear your figure apart. There should always be a draft choice that I would make as a counter to your custom, otherwise I'm stupid not to draft your custom.
So, no Q9s then. Check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
5. More Cheerleaders, Defenders and niche. We have tons of sharks, bread and butter and menacers and those a fun to play. It is a lot more tricky to design a good cheer leader that you will want to field. (Raelin Notwithstanding)
There are plenty of Cheerleaders (Raymond, Arktos, Myrrdin, Priscus, Tomoe, Andask, Rygarn, Haduc) and Niche units. Defenders - you have a point there. VC has been a little short, particularly when it comes to common squads. Good thought there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
6. Choice. Heroscape is about choice. I want to play figures that offer strategic choice, not determined outcomes. Do I play out the elementals, or summon a new one? Do I bond with Migol or take the extra move. Do I engage with more Mohicans or fall back for range. Do I wait or move then fire? All are good choices. Your figure should get me thinking, get me excited about the next round.
Do you feel that customs have been lacking in this? I would disagree pretty strongly. There are some simple, straightforward designs (which, not to belabor the point, also is in keeping with classic) but there are also some brain-burners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
7. Clump them up. The romans are a great target for DW9000, however most other units you are always better to spread them out. Getting your custom squads to provide the decision of staying in formation or spreading out is a great way to provide innovation. More formation powers would be very interesting. Really does your aura have to be 2 or more clear sight spaces? Are you only leaving that gap to keep your figures from falling prey to area of effect special powers? You are babying your custom! Let them die like heroes, not spread out like cowards.
I like these too! But I don't think we're that short on adjacency bonuses in VC. Maybe a hair short of classic's pace, but not too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
8. One less power. I have seen it mentioned before, but get the flavor of your custom from the stats and try not to jam too many powers/words on a card. Some of the best customs have 1 or 2 powers. At worst they have three powers with two of them being super simple. Make it short and sweet, and the card will feel elegant not bloated.
I do prescribe to the Coco Chanel school of custom design. At times customs have gone overboard. That said, sometimes complexity is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
9. No more 4/4. We all know 4 defense or 4 attack is when a figure gets good. Hell there is some crazy math in the the Theoryscape library that does a great job proving it. However, can you make a figure good with 1, 2, or 3 on their stats? What about 6, 7 or 8? Can you make them balanced? Change up the 4/4 and really get creative.
People talk about "magical" 3 defense, but less so about 4 attack. Anyway... classic has 25 4/4s not counting Spider-Man. Do you think VC has broken from history here? If not, why should VC avoid a common stat line from classic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
10. Weaknesses. Some of the best units/most interesting units have weaknesses. Marcus and Sir Hawthorn always make for a tense game. Having a weakness really can make for some creative play and requires detail strategy. When the player has to ask themselves how they will combat their own failings, it adds choice and diversity.
Frankly, VC has done way more of this than classic did.

Last edited by dok; January 6th, 2015 at 12:36 AM.
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Old January 6th, 2015, 12:23 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
The only thing Custom Creators (particularly the C3V/SoV) fear more than another Q9 on their hands is another DW7000 taking up space.
Wow. Speaking as a member of the project, I assure you that this could not be further from the truth. It's been said many times internally that if we approve a dud unit, it will be swiftly forgotten. However, produce one broken-strong unit and it will discredit the project indefinitely. This is very easy to prove out - nobody spends any time complaining about Cxurg'gyath or the Preyblood Thrall, but a huge amount of digital ink has been spilled discussing Quahon and Cathar Spearmen (despite neither being in the Q9/Raelin range).
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Old January 6th, 2015, 01:40 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

I suppose that's true--I did forget about Cxurg'gyath (whose power ranking of C is way too generous imo)... but he still ain't no DW7K

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Old January 6th, 2015, 01:48 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

I read the OP a couple hours ago and didn't think it was targeted at the C3V.

It seemed like pretty good advice, to me. All things in moderation.

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Old January 6th, 2015, 02:27 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I read the OP a couple hours ago and didn't think it was targeted at the C3V.

It seemed like pretty good advice, to me. All things in moderation.
I didn't think it was targeted at the C3V, but I don't think anyone has the right to take a dump on individual custom makers either, there is already to much of that going around, especially in this era of the game.

It's nonsensical to address everyone as one big unit anyway, each individual is in charge of his own thread. I'm no more responsible for ixe's simple straight-forward designs or Scytale's elegantly creative designs than they are for my text-heavy 'More than a little crazy, but who cares? We're just looking at the pretty figures.' designs.

Personally, I'm big on individual creative freedom. Some want simple elegant customs? fine. I like mine complicated, but I don't think less of those that don't or try to force them to adopt my design sense. Same with any of his other points. I don't think it's too much to ask for the same courtesy.

If someone likes their customs 'too good', more power too them. If wriggz wants his personal customs to fit in his categories, more power to him too. But I don't like this 'judgement from on high' bs.

I want high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-O all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to.


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Old January 6th, 2015, 02:37 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

I don't necessarily agree with every point but at least a number of them are fine things to keep in mind when it comes to custom design of any sort, even if it is little more than a post on the site.

On the titular subject of power creep, one line I find myself falling into from time to time is comparing a design to other designs around the same cost. Particularly for heroes at 120 points, I find myself comparing them to elite units like Kaemon Awa or the Fen Hydra rather than mentioning others like Runa, Siege, or Tandros Kreel. This sort of thinking can actually lead to long term power creep if you only try to put units out at that level rather than taking a step or two back first.
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Old January 6th, 2015, 06:21 AM
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Re: Power Creep Customs: Open letter to the Custom Community

You know wriggz, you could just post your thoughts on the threads.

It's another article that is a good read, irregardless of one's opinions of the subject at hand. While "customs cred" isn't at all a requirement in this neck of the woods (folks like @Shiftrex and @TheAverageFan haven't hung around this part that long), it can help you see why each unit designer does what they do.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; February 22nd, 2015 at 02:01 PM. Reason: LOL, who did that?
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