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  #4453  
Old December 31st, 2014, 02:03 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Dok, I'm still surprised that you moved Torky out of the choke point where he was holding Wannok. I was about to attack you the next turn, so you would most likely have won.
I was better than even odds to kill Ornak. Even though I didn't, If you don't roll 90% attack to my 20% defense in the next turn I win anyway.

We go back to Fossil for the next one.
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  #4454  
Old December 31st, 2014, 02:05 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Dok, I'm still surprised that you moved Torky out of the choke point where he was holding Wannok. I was about to attack you the next turn, so you would most likely have won.
I was better than even odds to kill Ornak. Even though I didn't, If you don't roll 90% attack to my 20% defense in the next turn I win anyway.

We go back to Fossil for the next one.
I'm just surprised that you wouldn't want to maximize your chance to win.

When do you want to play?
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  #4455  
Old December 31st, 2014, 07:19 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Dok, I'm still surprised that you moved Torky out of the choke point where he was holding Wannok. I was about to attack you the next turn, so you would most likely have won.
I was better than even odds to kill Ornak. Even though I didn't, If you don't roll 90% attack to my 20% defense in the next turn I win anyway.

We go back to Fossil for the next one.
I'm just surprised that you wouldn't want to maximize your chance to win.
I'm not sure I didn't; you were just stupendously lucky. And again, if TKN can deliver 2 wounds with a 6v3 attack, you don't even have a chance to be stupendously lucky. As I said, I'm happy to back up and replay it the same way for you. I think you win in that spot less than 20% of the time, conservatively.

Quote:
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When do you want to play?
I dunno. Wanna play tomorrow, noon your time?
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  #4456  
Old January 1st, 2015, 05:00 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
This is my real problem with "range is for little girls" - not just the casual sexism of it, but the implication that somehow playing really strong melee armies is cooler than playing tricky or weaker ranged armies. I don't get that. A strong army is a strong army.
THIS. Knights and Heavies are of the strongest armies and are rightfully in the top tier alongside 4th Mass, Trons, Vydar Range, rat heavy builds, etc. Just because they're all melee doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage by any means. Same goes for other 'tiers', the army type of range or melee (or hybrid) should not sway the strength of an army, there's way more to it.

Maybe this misconception is because more of the higher armies are range based, so people get it stuck in their head that range means better and melee is the underdog, and start thinking that's the case for every matchup. Or maybe some players don't know how to play melee and maneuver and maximize movement properly, and get trounced by a careful player with range. Or they aren't playing on balanced, competitive maps that don't consider melee.

The competitive level of an army does not depend on, nor is altered by, simply whether it's range or melee based.
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  #4457  
Old January 1st, 2015, 09:25 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
This is my real problem with "range is for little girls" - not just the casual sexism of it, but the implication that somehow playing really strong melee armies is cooler than playing tricky or weaker ranged armies. I don't get that. A strong army is a strong army.
THIS. Knights and Heavies are of the strongest armies and are rightfully in the top tier alongside 4th Mass, Trons, Vydar Range, rat heavy builds, etc. Just because they're all melee doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage by any means. Same goes for other 'tiers', the army type of range or melee (or hybrid) should not sway the strength of an army, there's way more to it.

Maybe this misconception is because more of the higher armies are range based, so people get it stuck in their head that range means better and melee is the underdog, and start thinking that's the case for every matchup. Or maybe some players don't know how to play melee and maneuver and maximize movement properly, and get trounced by a careful player with range. Or they aren't playing on balanced, competitive maps that don't consider melee.

The competitive level of an army does not depend on, nor is altered by, simply whether it's range or melee based.
"There's way more to it." "[M]aybe some players don't know how to play melee . . . "

Where is that Melee Strategy Guide when you need it?

I, too, have labored under this misconception - at least with respect to myself. As much as I love to field mostly melee armies, I always hedge my bets with a ranged unit(s) like Syvarris (or, if I'm feeling super competitive or cheesy, the Krav, but I always feel cheap after using them).

P.S.: dok, I've always assumed that "girly" in this context is being used facetiously, but I take your point.



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  #4458  
Old January 1st, 2015, 12:23 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

I think watching the matches the other night reminded me that pure melee vs. pure melee has some problematic issues competitively. There is just so much to be said for a melee army turtling in its auras and adjacencies. Just a single ranged unit solves the problem by forcing engagement.

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  #4459  
Old January 1st, 2015, 12:46 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Also it can create a dice-fest, which will tend to favor the younger player. Because that's what happens.

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  #4460  
Old January 1st, 2015, 01:02 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Or maybe some players don't know how to play melee and maneuver and maximize movement properly, and get trounced by a careful player with range.
Yeah, this is part of it. As I said in the post you quoted, it's definitely easier for a bad player to play effectively with a ranged army than a melee one. But once you are talking about experienced tournament players, the top tier melee armies are just as powerful (and cheesy, I suppose) as the ranged armies they share their rankings with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Or they aren't playing on balanced, competitive maps that don't consider melee.
This also enters into it historically, because maps were much more range-friendly in the first few years of tournament Heroscape, when these ideas first took hold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
P.S.: dok, I've always assumed that "girly" in this context is being used facetiously, but I take your point.
This is mostly true. It also began, at least in part, as a statement by Matthias about what his daughter (an actual little girl) might play. All of that said, as "girly" is used over and over this way in this context, further and further from the original use, it becomes one of those things that perpetuates a relatively insignificant but nevertheless real kind of sexism. It's really not very different from saying "playing range is gay".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
I think watching the matches the other night reminded me that pure melee vs. pure melee has some problematic issues competitively. There is just so much to be said for a melee army turtling in its auras and adjacencies. Just a single ranged unit solves the problem by forcing engagement.
Quite so. Some maps are better than others about this. I haven't played that many melee-melee games in tournament play (at least, outside of HoB), and none of them were as bad as that game, but many of them have been very slow, maneuvering games, and at least one featured a staring competition across the low ground (not as bad as that game but bad).

From looking at the maps OEA1 dropped from the pool, it looks like he just planned to sit in one spot and see if I was willing to attack up in every game, which is pretty lame. On some level I think this proves the point, i.e. that he realizes that his Blade Grut army can't beat my TKN army head to head on level ground with any consistency, so he needs to have a big advantage.

If we play more of these, maybe the best move would be to pick maps that make turtling on high ground impossible (Flash Fire, Quasatch Playground, Stygian Rift, Morh, Song of the Walrus, Road Rampage, Ticalla Sunrise, etc). Another, probably better option is to pick another point total, where I actually have the points to play some range, as I often do with TKN builds. At 390 or 400, I will play TKN as a pure melee army, like I did at Gencon Take 2 this year. But at higher point totals (or, I suppose, some lower one), I will generally toss in some range.

Of course, then it's a little less of an apples to apples comparison of the two units, but then, at this point everyone acknowledges at this point that TKN builds win HtH without some advantage factor the other way.

Last edited by dok; January 1st, 2015 at 01:26 PM.
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  #4461  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:28 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

This is kinda turning into a pissing contest, guys...

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  #4462  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 03:12 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Yeah, it kinda look that way...

I was watching this because I actually wanted to see how things turned out because I'm not experienced in competitive heroscape. Can it turn back to being more about the units and whatnot? lol
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  #4463  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 07:08 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Play online scape if you can @Shiftrex . You can pick up metagame info (and experience any units you want) there.

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  #4464  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 11:29 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
I was watching this because I actually wanted to see how things turned out because I'm not experienced in competitive heroscape. Can it turn back to being more about the units and whatnot? lol
Hello @Shiftrex and welcome to Scapers.

This thread is pretty much outdated in my opinion since most Competitive Heroscape uses C3V units. And the argument going on there is not very constructive honestly.
I recommend you this thread instead. This thread is still "growing" so the conversations going on there are more interesting I think.

I also like this thread, even if he's very outdated, you can have a good overview of the Heroscape metagame.

Like flameslayer I would recommend you to join us in the Online HS community, you can ask for a game in this thread. Getting rekt 2 or 3 times can give you a good overview of what competitive Heroscape is (just joking ).

If you have more specific questions do not hesitate to create a whole new thread for it. Me and other people would be pleased to answer you.

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