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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies. |
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#133
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
Also... MM went something like 28-6-1 at the last GenCon over his events, and he never played a single ranged unit OR deathreavers. And he was 2-3 with Knights of Weston.
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#134
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
You're sort of missing the point of what I'm saying. And you're still equating rats as being a "melee based" army which I think is bogus.
First you are talking about lost of units making it to day 2 of such and such a tournament. Really, that's nice, but day 2 doesn't win. Day 2 is coming somewhat close. Now I'm not one to talk, as I don't attend these tournaments (I play exclusively with friends, in what is supposed to be a casual setting). If fact it's that supposedly "casual" setting that has sort of led me down this discussion in the first place. We basically have a "shared" conglomerate of Heroscape which includes all the figures, at least 3 of almost all the common squads (excepting like 2 or 3, one of which is Shades.), often more (4th Mass, Knights, etc.) And several randomly assorted multiples of uniques (lots of RotV uniques, especially). Now we begin with with the idea of "casual" play, but it hardly works out that way. There is usually one person in particular (I won't name names ) that casts the first stone by picking something like lots of rats, or lots of Stingers, several other A ranked units. In order to keep up, someone usually has to follow suit, and the metagame arms race begins(Well if your gonna have Krav, I'm gonna get Q9, this sort of mentality). I'm not here looking for ways to keep my friends in check and "play by the our rules," what I'm really saying is that I've made this same observation many others have, and that your "tier list" points too. And that is this game is heavily weighted to a very select number of units, and particularly ranged units. If you want to use 30% as a number for "viable" competitive units, that's fine, but personally I feel it is closer to 15-20%. Either way, I think that is a bit low, considering (in the grand scheme of things) there aren't a terrible number of units in the game. I'm not here to complain about Heroscape as a game. I love it, and have had lots of fun with it. No matter what army is out there, you can come up with a counter army. My problem with the game surfaces when the "always play to win" mentality surfaces, either in casual play or what can be expected in most tournaments. I wish there was a little more balance to keep this mentality in check. As far as for the variance and success of units such as Vipers, etc. I personally would attribute that to the inherent luck factor found in a game based on dice rolls. That takes us into whether this game is more skill or luck, which is an entirely different thread . |
#135
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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#136
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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No rats. No ranged. 80% win rate in multiple events. Won two tournaments (without Knights). Took Aquilla's General, going 4-0-1. His only tie in that event? 3x Knights, Sir Gilbert, and Nilfheim. Is that army boring because it has Knights? But rats are melee. I'm not saying the army is all melee, but I'm saying that if Rats and Raelin form 200 points out of a 500 point army, it's not a strictly ranged army. Glads/Blasts to me feels more like a melee/ranged hybrid army which plays differently than just about every other army... except Arrow Gruts/Swog, which doesn't seem similar on a superficial level, unless you count them as both "boring ranged." If the main objective is "destroy the other guy's stuff," how can attacking the other guy while controlling the engagements to your advantage not be the main way to play? And what I find interesting about the good units is what happens when you come across other people who are trying to win, and how small differences in the army build get brought up. Before every tournament, I spend a bunch of time talking through and coming up with armies. I've usualy got half a dozen to 20 armies on paper somewhere, and each one has 1 or 3 minor variations. How do Aubriens/Venocs, or Mohicans/Venocs fit into your "tie stuff down and shoot" world? Armies like that have done decently, and I'm pretty sure that Mohicans already have won a tournament. |
#137
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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My point is that the way you're defining "archetypes" is extremely broad, and encompasses armies that play very differently. |
#138
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
On a side note, wouldn't it be awesome if we actually did have Heroscape Cookies? I bet the Venoc Cookies would disappear real fast, whereas the Fig Gladiatrons are bound to stick to my teeth...
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#140
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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Ollie has also made it his mission in life to use every unit in a tournament. He's also one of the top ranked players in the northeast. I'm pretty certain he went 4-1 once using DZU-TEH. If that's not diversity, I don't know what is. The Lorax: While I agree that a lot of gencon caliber armies are following a similar format per say, not all tournaments are into this. The northeast-maryland region has sent the trophy home with something like microcorp+brunak, blade gruts, TAELORD + ZETTIANS (and stingers...), Romans, marro drones, etc. It's crazy what we see. |
#141
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
You know, one of my favorite threads to mention in a discussion like this is "I could beath that army." The people over there are fairly systematically showing that there is no ONE ultimate Heroscape army.
TheLorax (awesome name) is right in that a lot of the winning armies rely on range. Range is powerful. But he's not right in asserting that every winning army is the same. Even with ranged units the strategy required can vary dramatically from from army to army. |
#142
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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(If you aren't convinced, you haven't tried it. The next time you see someone in your group picking stingers and rats, just go with heavies, raelin, grimnak, Nerak if he fits. My point is that you can easily upset the status quo by shifting your own choices.) Another option: Change the scenario. Different point values, different starting zone restrictions, different glyphs, no glyphs, flat maps, maps with LOS blockers everywhere, general wars, dragon wars, unique hero. I do understand the concern with repetitive armies, but you really can do something about it if you want to. The midwest scene is not quite as varied as the Northeast, but we still see a lot of new ideas. Some of that is that top players are willing to try new things, even if it means the occasional 2-3 record. |
#143
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
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I have a couple of 2-3 records from using units like Wolves of Badru and Sujoah. I haven't really been in contention to win a tournament in a long time, but that's because I've been playing armies like that, or the Hive, or Runa. I have a blast doing it though. I keep saying "I'm coming to this tournament to win," but then I don't do it, and KCU Master or Phantazm21zero just wins by playing 4th Mass or Vydar range (although KCU Master sprinkles Taelord in there, which is sweet). One of these tournaments I'm going to play Mass or Trons (I've never played either in a tourney), and obliterate everyone . Like battle reports? Click Tourney Reports (New 10/21/2012 - Cutters / Brutes!) KC's Maps Click KC's Customs Scaper of the Week #57 |
#144
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers
Or you'll lose to the guy playing Aubrien Archers/ Venocs and his 12 frenzies.
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