Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #133  
Old December 8th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 7,050
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 31
Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Also... MM went something like 28-6-1 at the last GenCon over his events, and he never played a single ranged unit OR deathreavers. And he was 2-3 with Knights of Weston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old December 8th, 2009, 01:09 AM
TheLorax's Avatar
TheLorax TheLorax is offline
 
Join Date: June 18, 2009
Location: USA - Georgia - Atlanta
Posts: 148
TheLorax is surprisingly tart
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

You're sort of missing the point of what I'm saying. And you're still equating rats as being a "melee based" army which I think is bogus.

First you are talking about lost of units making it to day 2 of such and such a tournament. Really, that's nice, but day 2 doesn't win. Day 2 is coming somewhat close. Now I'm not one to talk, as I don't attend these tournaments (I play exclusively with friends, in what is supposed to be a casual setting).

If fact it's that supposedly "casual" setting that has sort of led me down this discussion in the first place. We basically have a "shared" conglomerate of Heroscape which includes all the figures, at least 3 of almost all the common squads (excepting like 2 or 3, one of which is Shades.), often more (4th Mass, Knights, etc.) And several randomly assorted multiples of uniques (lots of RotV uniques, especially).

Now we begin with with the idea of "casual" play, but it hardly works out that way. There is usually one person in particular (I won't name names ) that casts the first stone by picking something like lots of rats, or lots of Stingers, several other A ranked units. In order to keep up, someone usually has to follow suit, and the metagame arms race begins(Well if your gonna have Krav, I'm gonna get Q9, this sort of mentality). I'm not here looking for ways to keep my friends in check and "play by the our rules," what I'm really saying is that I've made this same observation many others have, and that your "tier list" points too. And that is this game is heavily weighted to a very select number of units, and particularly ranged units. If you want to use 30% as a number for "viable" competitive units, that's fine, but personally I feel it is closer to 15-20%. Either way, I think that is a bit low, considering (in the grand scheme of things) there aren't a terrible number of units in the game.

I'm not here to complain about Heroscape as a game. I love it, and have had lots of fun with it. No matter what army is out there, you can come up with a counter army. My problem with the game surfaces when the "always play to win" mentality surfaces, either in casual play or what can be expected in most tournaments. I wish there was a little more balance to keep this mentality in check.

As far as for the variance and success of units such as Vipers, etc. I personally would attribute that to the inherent luck factor found in a game based on dice rolls. That takes us into whether this game is more skill or luck, which is an entirely different thread .
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old December 8th, 2009, 01:17 AM
TheLorax's Avatar
TheLorax TheLorax is offline
 
Join Date: June 18, 2009
Location: USA - Georgia - Atlanta
Posts: 148
TheLorax is surprisingly tart
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
What is arguably semantics is whether you consider all "mix of range and blocking figures" builds, or all "pure range" builds, to be one archetype. I think that's an enormous stretch, personally, unless you're defining "archetype" as something so broad as to encompass armies that are not played in the same ways and have very different strengths and weaknesses.

Is a 'tron build the same as a build with rats and a bunch of unique ranged figures? Is Q9+Laglor+KMA the same as a bunch of stingers? If you don't think there's anything notably different and interesting that distinguishes those armies, I can't see how this game can hold your interest.
I'm not sure why you have to take this weak sarcastic tone. If you really get your kicks of out winning in life from a board game tournament, don't let me take that away from you. It seems like your hell bent on seeing things your way no matter what, so I'm not going to really engage in any further discussion with you in particular.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old December 8th, 2009, 07:06 AM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 7,050
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 31
Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Also... MM went something like 28-6-1 at the last GenCon over his events, and he never played [used] a single ranged unit OR deathreavers. And he was 2-3 with Knights of Weston.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
You're sort of missing the point of what I'm saying. And you're still equating rats as being a "melee based" army which I think is bogus.

No rats. No ranged. 80% win rate in multiple events. Won two tournaments (without Knights). Took Aquilla's General, going 4-0-1. His only tie in that event? 3x Knights, Sir Gilbert, and Nilfheim. Is that army boring because it has Knights?

But rats are melee. I'm not saying the army is all melee, but I'm saying that if Rats and Raelin form 200 points out of a 500 point army, it's not a strictly ranged army. Glads/Blasts to me feels more like a melee/ranged hybrid army which plays differently than just about every other army... except Arrow Gruts/Swog, which doesn't seem similar on a superficial level, unless you count them as both "boring ranged."

If the main objective is "destroy the other guy's stuff," how can attacking the other guy while controlling the engagements to your advantage not be the main way to play?

And what I find interesting about the good units is what happens when you come across other people who are trying to win, and how small differences in the army build get brought up. Before every tournament, I spend a bunch of time talking through and coming up with armies. I've usualy got half a dozen to 20 armies on paper somewhere, and each one has 1 or 3 minor variations.


How do Aubriens/Venocs, or Mohicans/Venocs fit into your "tie stuff down and shoot" world? Armies like that have done decently, and I'm pretty sure that Mohicans already have won a tournament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old December 8th, 2009, 10:23 AM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,736
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
First you are talking about lost of units making it to day 2 of such and such a tournament. Really, that's nice, but day 2 doesn't win. Day 2 is coming somewhat close.
He's not talking about day 2 of "such and such" tournament. He's talking about day 2 of the most competitive tournament in the country, where making day 2 is a major achievement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
Now I'm not one to talk, as I don't attend these tournaments (I play exclusively with friends, in what is supposed to be a casual setting).
The point is, the tournament scene does have a bunch of people being successful with a wide variety of builds. You seem to be insisting this isn't the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
My problem with the game surfaces when the "always play to win" mentality surfaces, either in casual play or what can be expected in most tournaments. I wish there was a little more balance to keep this mentality in check.
This is really neither here nor there when it comes to how diverse the builds are. And neither my experience with tournaments, nor the broader tournament scene I've heard about, suggests that everyone "plays to win" and only runs the most competitive builds. At the tournament I recently played in, I faced Kelda, Morsbane, Iskra+Rechets... none of those are highly-rated figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
As far as for the variance and success of units such as Vipers, etc. I personally would attribute that to the inherent luck factor found in a game based on dice rolls.
Well, Vipers actually are a very good counter to some of the popular builds out there. But moreover, this is exactly why things like "multiple such builds made day 2 of the main event" or "Heavy Gruts have a 78% winning percentage when played by the top players" are meaningful. Because the game has an element of luck (both from the dice and from the matchups you get), you should look at a wider range of results, rather than just who won an event. (Although knights and gruts and dwarves have won events.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLorax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
What is arguably semantics is whether you consider all "mix of range and blocking figures" builds, or all "pure range" builds, to be one archetype. I think that's an enormous stretch, personally, unless you're defining "archetype" as something so broad as to encompass armies that are not played in the same ways and have very different strengths and weaknesses.

Is a 'tron build the same as a build with rats and a bunch of unique ranged figures? Is Q9+Laglor+KMA the same as a bunch of stingers? If you don't think there's anything notably different and interesting that distinguishes those armies, I can't see how this game can hold your interest.
I'm not sure why you have to take this weak sarcastic tone.
There's two question marks in the last paragraph, and they are not rhetorical. Do you really feel that a stinger-horde plays the same way, or has the same favorable and unfavorable matchups, compared to an army with a bunch of Vydar ranged figures? If so, I can't imagine the game seems very interesting to you.

My point is that the way you're defining "archetypes" is extremely broad, and encompasses armies that play very differently.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old December 8th, 2009, 11:34 AM
Elginb Elginb is offline
 
Join Date: August 30, 2006
Posts: 1,327
Blog Entries: 21
Elginb has disabled reputation
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

On a side note, wouldn't it be awesome if we actually did have Heroscape Cookies? I bet the Venoc Cookies would disappear real fast, whereas the Fig Gladiatrons are bound to stick to my teeth...
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old December 8th, 2009, 07:27 PM
arp12's Avatar
arp12 arp12 is offline
Silly Kid
 
Join Date: September 30, 2007
Location: USA - MA
Posts: 2,104
Images: 43
Blog Entries: 4
arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness arp12 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

You mean like these?
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old December 8th, 2009, 08:48 PM
Einar's puppy's Avatar
Einar's puppy Einar's puppy is offline
All growed up
 
Join Date: February 19, 2008
Location: Chicago, Il
Posts: 7,662
Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Einar's puppy is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
How do Aubriens/Venocs, or Mohicans/Venocs fit into your "tie stuff down and shoot" world? Armies like that have done decently, and I'm pretty sure that Mohicans already have won a tournament.
Cleon's dad at the saratoga slugfest used 5 squads of them with mittens and Raelin (600pts) and won. I saw him in actiong once or twice, and he's scary with that army.

Ollie has also made it his mission in life to use every unit in a tournament. He's also one of the top ranked players in the northeast. I'm pretty certain he went 4-1 once using DZU-TEH. If that's not diversity, I don't know what is.

The Lorax: While I agree that a lot of gencon caliber armies are following a similar format per say, not all tournaments are into this. The northeast-maryland region has sent the trophy home with something like microcorp+brunak, blade gruts, TAELORD + ZETTIANS (and stingers...), Romans, marro drones, etc. It's crazy what we see.
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old December 9th, 2009, 01:49 AM
Kroc's Avatar
Kroc Kroc is offline
Did you know that 5 exclamation points is a sign of insanity?
 
Join Date: July 27, 2007
Location: Ankara, Turkey
Posts: 1,747
Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

You know, one of my favorite threads to mention in a discussion like this is "I could beath that army." The people over there are fairly systematically showing that there is no ONE ultimate Heroscape army.

TheLorax (awesome name) is right in that a lot of the winning armies rely on range. Range is powerful. But he's not right in asserting that every winning army is the same. Even with ranged units the strategy required can vary dramatically from from army to army.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old December 9th, 2009, 11:59 AM
fomox's Avatar
fomox fomox is offline
 
Join Date: September 11, 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,764
Images: 2
fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla fomox is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Einar's puppy View Post
Ollie has also made it his mission in life to use every unit in a tournament. He's also one of the top ranked players in the northeast. I'm pretty certain he went 4-1 once using DZU-TEH. If that's not diversity, I don't know what is.
....
While I agree that a lot of gencon caliber armies are following a similar format per say, not all tournaments are into this. The northeast-maryland region has sent the trophy home with something like microcorp+brunak, blade gruts, TAELORD + ZETTIANS (and stingers...), Romans, marro drones, etc. It's crazy what we see.
I think this is the key point. If your play group is so concerned with winning that you only see the same armies every time, be the one who makes a difference. Try something else. It's okay to try something and fail. It's really fun to try to challenge the 'consensus', to the extent that one exists. Raelin and the heavies was ridiculously fun and unexpectedly (to those who didn't bring it) dominant.

(If you aren't convinced, you haven't tried it. The next time you see someone in your group picking stingers and rats, just go with heavies, raelin, grimnak, Nerak if he fits. My point is that you can easily upset the status quo by shifting your own choices.)

Another option: Change the scenario. Different point values, different starting zone restrictions, different glyphs, no glyphs, flat maps, maps with LOS blockers everywhere, general wars, dragon wars, unique hero.

I do understand the concern with repetitive armies, but you really can do something about it if you want to. The midwest scene is not quite as varied as the Northeast, but we still see a lot of new ideas. Some of that is that top players are willing to try new things, even if it means the occasional 2-3 record.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old December 9th, 2009, 12:17 PM
killercactus's Avatar
killercactus killercactus is offline
The Guy That Thinks Runa is Good (and has actually won games with her)
 
Join Date: February 19, 2007
Location: OH - Austintown
Posts: 7,888
Images: 32
Blog Entries: 10
killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death! killercactus is hot lava death!
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post

I do understand the concern with repetitive armies, but you really can do something about it if you want to. The midwest scene is not quite as varied as the Northeast, but we still see a lot of new ideas. Some of that is that top players are willing to try new things, even if it means the occasional 2-3 record.
Here's the key to variety (if you're just doing XXX point armies - kill 'em all tournaments). If the top players are willing to play something fun once in a while (or at least something different), players are happier.

I have a couple of 2-3 records from using units like Wolves of Badru and Sujoah. I haven't really been in contention to win a tournament in a long time, but that's because I've been playing armies like that, or the Hive, or Runa. I have a blast doing it though.

I keep saying "I'm coming to this tournament to win," but then I don't do it, and KCU Master or Phantazm21zero just wins by playing 4th Mass or Vydar range (although KCU Master sprinkles Taelord in there, which is sweet). One of these tournaments I'm going to play Mass or Trons (I've never played either in a tourney), and obliterate everyone .

Like battle reports? Click Tourney Reports (New 10/21/2012 - Cutters / Brutes!)
KC's Maps
Click KC's Customs
Scaper of the Week #57
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old December 9th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 7,050
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 31
Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth
Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Or you'll lose to the guy playing Aubrien Archers/ Venocs and his 12 frenzies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Have any of you used that Crayola Cutter thing? Doustin General 7 March 30th, 2009 05:04 PM
Hot Wire Foam Cutter Raudulfr Shieldcrusher Custom Terrain & Obstacles 28 April 15th, 2008 06:12 PM
400-500point Army Discussion XSI Addict 32 Competitive Armies Discussion 7 April 3rd, 2007 07:38 AM
400-500 point army discussion (again) XSI Addict 32 Competitive Armies Discussion 2 April 2nd, 2007 08:49 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:47 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.