Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

[Dysole]

For me I think the 3 defense plus an additional 25 points are enough for me to see Braxas as just a step behind Nilfheim in double blind tournaments. Braxas is also going to be more variable than Nilfheim and the power rankings reward lower variance more.

Rats + range is something that I feel is a much tougher matchup for Braxas since it'll be easier to pin Braxas into a tight corner and she'll likely end up just eating most of the rats rather than what's attacking her compared to Nilfheim whose greater range allows him to work around this.

As defense and points per figure increases, Braxas looks more appealing as whiffing an acid roll on a cheap squad is much more devastating.

I think the argument is there, but I'm not sure we'll have sufficient data to ever argue Nilf and Braxas are on the same footing.

~Dysole, who notes Cleon may have wanted Nilf over Braxas had he fought her in 2016.

[anagrams_are_just_grams]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Here's the thing: if Nilfheim's and Braxas' point costs were reversed, Nilfheim would still be the better choice. Nilf should absolutely be an A, Braxas is good as a solid A-.

Braxas Advantages:
1. Ridiculous against Agents: was the toughest matchup I play tested against when I ran straight Agents in the main event a few years back- basically had to sacrifice KMA and Nakita followed by closing shots with Skahen, Skahen + Raelin had to close out the game- very tough.
2. Non-adjancency with PAB vs. Ice Shard: a minor advantage, you really shouldn't be letting your dragon get engaged regardless.
3. More nimble sculpt: my biggest problem with Nilf is that he can have trouble fitting into key perches on specific maps.

Nilfheim Advantages:
1. Better survivability: this is mostly based on personal experience. Braxas' 3 defense is so soft, a butter knife will slide through. It's the same with melee squads like Knights: the bump from 3 to 4 defense is huge in practice, especially against range.
2. Higher range: pretty self-explanatory, but kiting is much stronger with Nilf's 5th range.
3. Better special: ISB shreds.
4. Less matchup-dependent: PAB is trash vs Wyrmlings and Hounds, both being common in today's meta.
5. 6th Attack die: this gives Nilf the ability to take out problematic large figures, from enemy Dragons to Majors to anything else.

TL;DR: Braxas is better in the Agent matchup. Nilfheim is better in every other competitive matchup. No, Kyrie are not competitive.

It's also worth noting that I've never (at least that I can remember) lost to Braxas in a competitive environment. I'm very happy when I run into a Braxas. I'm not happy when I hit a Nilf.

I strongly agree with all of your points except the kyrie one. MoU and SoJ can absolutely tear up a lot of armies. If you argue that hounds and wrymlings are common in the meta then how can you say kyrie arent competitive? Ive seen minions absolutely smack greenscale/nilf around before as well as 10th/pks/stingers/agents. Their only real bad match ups are braxas blast/glad and wrymlings. They arent favored against knights/heavies but they can still win esp if the maps have lots of elevation or water. Granted I cant think of any melee squad that could take knights or heavies more often than not. I’d argue every A- ranked piece thats non-marvel is competitive with maybe the exception of Drake V2.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by anagrams_are_just_grams

I strongly agree with all of your points except the kyrie one. MoU and SoJ can absolutely tear up a lot of armies. If you argue that hounds and wrymlings are common in the meta then how can you say kyrie arent competitive? Ive seen minions absolutely smack greenscale/nilf around before as well as 10th/pks/stingers/agents. Their only real bad match ups are braxas blast/glad and wrymlings. They arent favored against knights/heavies but they can still win esp if the maps have lots of elevation or water. Granted I cant think of any melee squad that could take knights or heavies more often than not. I’d argue every A- ranked piece thats non-marvel is competitive with maybe the exception of Drake V2.

Again, your question on Kyrie, among other things, will be answered. Long story short: Minions and Sentinels are B+, borderline B. They struggle hard vs. Hounds, Wyrmlings, bonding Melee, Range, other auto-kills like Braxas, TKN, Cyp... basically everything you see in the meta. They're overcosted and 3 attacks a turn is very weak.

I'm also wondering where you see this happening. I certainly haven't seen this at GenCon. Who was playing? Glyphs? Maps? In an ideal competitive setting, Kyrie struggle hard.

[anagrams_are_just_grams]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Again, your question on Kyrie, among other things, will be answered. Long story short: Minions and Sentinels are B+, borderline B. They struggle hard vs. Hounds, Wyrmlings, bonding Melee, Range, other auto-kills like Braxas, TKN, Cyp... basically everything you see in the meta. They're overcosted and 3 attacks a turn is very weak.

I'm also wondering where you see this happening. I certainly haven't seen this at GenCon. Who was playing? Glyphs? Maps? In an ideal competitive setting, Kyrie struggle hard.

Now your saying minions struggle against hounds? I’ve never seen hounds beat minions once and I see that match up frequently with my friends. Even with plague they ususally cant make up for their weaker stats. They can take bonding melee and range and tkn. They do not struggle hard in a lot of match ups even if the match up is bad for them. They’re beefed up pks that dont struggle against specials or lose defense bonuses in melee and they hit harder. I saw them at games with my friends on bov maps with the general competitive glyphs so like move initiative unique attack wound. Generally 500 point games with some 400ish and a few 600. Sentinels I could see at high B+ but not minions. They’ve been at A- for years and they haven’t moved down for a reason. The rankings are subjective but theres no way they’re borderline B. They can take agents and stingers really well and if you compare them to stuff at B+ or B they’re much stronger than whats there. They’re noticeably better than vipers warforged mohicans and sacred band.

[OEAO]

Ok, I disagree. Most people in the competitive community view Kyrie as a B+. They're not bad, they're just not great. They have plenty of tough matchups and don't do super well in a competitive environment. They're overcosted.

Agree to disagree. Happy Easter!

[anagrams_are_just_grams]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Ok, I disagree. Most people in the competitive community view Kyrie as a B+. They're not bad, they're just not great. They have plenty of tough matchups and don't do super well in a competitive environment. They're overcosted.

Agree to disagree. Happy Easter!

Fair enough. Happy Easter to you too!

[Cleon]

I agree SoJ and MoU are B+, which I think is still competitive. B+ and B units can certainly do pretty well in competitive environments imo, it's once you get to B- and lower when it gets questionable.

Hounds aren't that great in my opinion. I'd put them at like a B, maybe B-. They're only seen at GC often now because the hex->fig limit change makes them way more fieldable, and I know a lot of people like them and want to finally bust them out. Also RtW style formats push B figures' frequency. I think it's cool they're more playable, but I don't think they're B+ or anything, certainly not A-.

In fact in lower figure environments the kyrie are stronger, maybe A-. At 24 hex, i'd rank them B+.

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Edit: also, we both know that those "kyrie armies" are great regardless what you pair with them, and has nothing to do with the kyrie themselves.

Nothing to do with the kyrie themselves? Sentinels (Minions, too) are one of the few things that's pretty good into Q9, which 4th Mass fear and want an answer to. The Minion army I listed - the Minions are a nice answer to heavier units that threaten Q9, and Q9 takes care of the swarms that the Minions are weak into, I think they compliment each other well. Both Minions and Q9 can high defense screen for Krav if you run into armies that really try to push.

I think the Kyrie (Sentinels and Minions, at least) have their uses and strengths for sure.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I agree SoJ and MoU are B+, which I think is still competitive. B+ and B units can certainly do pretty well in competitive environments imo, it's once you get to B- and lower when it gets questionable.

Hounds aren't that great in my opinion. I'd put them at like a B, maybe B-. They're only seen at GC often now because the hex->fig limit change makes them way more fieldable, and I know a lot of people like them and want to finally bust them out. Also RtW style formats push B figures' frequency. I think it's cool they're more playable, but I don't think they're B+ or anything, certainly not A-.

In fact in lower figure environments the kyrie are stronger, maybe A-. At 24 hex, i'd rank them B+.

Nothing to do with the kyrie themselves? Sentinels (Minions, too) are one of the few things that's pretty good into Q9, which 4th Mass fear and want an answer to. The Minion army I listed - the Minions are a nice answer to heavier units that threaten Q9, and Q9 takes care of the swarms that the Minions are weak into, I think they compliment each other well. Both Minions and Q9 can high defense screen for Krav if you run into armies that really try to push.

I think the Kyrie (Sentinels and Minions, at least) have their uses and strengths for sure.

Lower figures doesn't do much for Kyrie because 3x Heavies/Grim, 3x Dwarves/Mogrimm, 3x Knights/Gilbert, 3x Romans/Marcus/MBS, 3x Blades/Grim/Tornak, 3x Nagrubs/ TKN, etc. are still better. 3 attacks per turn is real weak.

I agree that Sentinels don't die to Q9... but Q9 also doesn't die to Sentinels. 3 attacks of 3 vs 7 (most likely 9)? Not too great. Minions are certainly better in this regard.

While B+ are still competitive to a certain extent, you don't tech your army to handle B+ units. Kyrie are niche enough now that it doesn't really give Braxas an advantage over Nilf for having a better matchup against them. Again, the better matchup over KMA is absolutely huge. This is why I never got why people ran Braxas with PKs: both struggle vs bonding melee but do great vs KMA/range. They help with 4th/10th/Stingers, but it still lacks a consistent melee answer.

Last point is on Hounds: they have several key advantages over Kyrie, from greater speed (despite sometimes inconsistent and no flying), an excellent ability in Plague, similar stats, resistance to auto-kills that are devastating for higher-costed squads, and yet are cheaper. They are also a B+ and seen equal to or more than in the meta than Kyrie. FWIW, Nilf handles the Hounds matchup much better.

[vegietarian18]

I think the Braxas/PKs build is a deliberately matchup skewed army for Reverse the Whip. I don't think anyone has played it as a minmaxed build.

I agree with OEA's general point that Minions/Sentinels/Hounds are all B+ figures. I could possibly be persuaded that Minions are A-, just because of their ability to quickly put wounds on heroes with good rolls, but I think they would be one of the weaker A- figures.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I think the Braxas/PKs build is a deliberately matchup skewed army for Reverse the Whip. I don't think anyone has played it as a minmaxed build.

I agree with OEA's general point that Minions/Sentinels/Hounds are all B+ figures. I could possibly be persuaded that Minions are A-, just because of their ability to quickly put wounds on heroes with good rolls, but I think they would be one of the weaker A- figures.

Good point on deliberately skewing it. I think that's pretty much the only place I see her nowadays.

Honestly, I think Zelrig is potentially better than Braxas, but that's a discussion for another day haha.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Good point on deliberately skewing it. I think that's pretty much the only place I see her nowadays.

Honestly, I think Zelrig is potentially better than Braxas, but that's a discussion for another day haha.

Non-comprable, entirely different purposes - Zelrig exists to nuke swarms, Braxas is best at slaughtering elite squaddies. Braxas is also a bit more generally versatile, but Zelrig's niche is arguably more useful and he's also cheaper.

[Dysole]

I can think of more scenarios where I'd rather have six red wyrms over Zelrig compared to scenarios where I'd rather have seven black wyrms over Braxas. Zelrig's special can be fairly easy to mitigate unlike Braxas's. I guess when you're filling your start zone that tends to increase Zelrig's utility, but I've seen the dragon do so little in enough games that I would not put him ahead of Braxas.

~Dysole, not quite sure where she'd rank him relative to the other dragons though