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HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.

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  #73  
Old August 21st, 2014, 10:20 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

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Airborne Elite, the wellsprings was always part of it. If you read the Master Set 3 campaign text, and the other two Dungeon Crawls, River of Blood and Shadow Cavern, the wellsprings are integral to the setting (and are actually a part of the terrain set up in the battle, if you view the map and read the way it is described). The Underdark refers to the underground regions of Valhalla that Utgar pumped full of races from Toril and Eberron, after realizing that the original civilization that constructed the wellsprings held their secrets underneath the surface of the world. (a bit misleading, but when you read in the Thormun's Journal entry where Jandar describes the wellspring, there is an actual magical technology accessed in the spring itself that allows for summoning.) My assumption why it was called the Underdark was because in-game, that's what all the new races kept calling it because they were familiar with similar settings in their homeworld by that name, and the Kyrie just picked it up, and out-game, it was to draw in D&D players to purchase the game, and help keep Heroscape afloat through their added interest.

Each campaign highlights a new wellspring source. In Cavern of Blood, one is used to create Valkrill through Estivara's magic, combined with the power of the wellspring. In Shadow Cavern, Valkrill summons his first wave of forces from one underneath Braunglayde. The plot was still moving forward. New wellsprings were being found. Jandar had a vision of 15 critical wellsprings, because those 15 held amulet keys. But there are numerous wellsprings far beyond the number 15, that don't have amulet keys, but can still be used with them. The only time the amulet keys were not used was when Valkrill used the magic of ancient artifacts from the original wellspring constructors, and with whatever oomph he got from the Drow, allowed him to do the same as the others that had keys.

We should understand it in-game like this:

For 5 years the war has been going on (as stated in the Journal). Waves of Marro are now coming from the south, (after these 5 years) and a scouting party, not the entire martial force of the Valkyrie, are sent to investigate. This makes Swarm of the Marro a side-storyline, one happening at the exact time the original war is taking place elsewhere. During the progression of the scouting party, the Underdark is discovered, and while the Marro are being quelled, at the exact same time, the Valkyrie are attempting to stop Utgar from finding out the wellspring's deepest secrets. Because the original war is still going on, and the scouting party is still down south, the numerous inclusion of all the Toril and Eberron units are a combination of Utgar's planning (as he was first to get them in there), and the Generals in a hasty attempt to stop him.

The war now exists in three theatres: North (Nastralund and lands surrounding, defending the city of Valgrind), South (Ticalla and regions surrounding), and Underground/Underdark (the ruins of the ancient civilization underground, where all the Toril and Eberron units are fighting each other). These battles are taking place at the same time.
Interesting I never knew that all those events where going on around the same time as opposed to time sagas. It makes for some interesting thoughts, and there are more than 15 well springs, but only 15 have amulets? I didn't know that either, reps to you sir.

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  #74  
Old August 21st, 2014, 10:32 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

Great post, MI.

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  #75  
Old August 21st, 2014, 10:48 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

AHHHHHHHH... NOW I see. Thanks!!! That clears a lot of stuff up.
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  #76  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 01:34 AM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

MI's post is my opinion about the D&D inclusion almost to the T. I must say I am impressed by his knowledge of the history of the overall canon.

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  #77  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 09:32 AM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

I will not argue this point any further, but I do realize that those worlds are D&D worlds. I'm merely saying that I don't believe they have any reason to be in HeroScape. I firmly believe that D&D 'Scape, although we will never actually know the truth, was at first, a continuation of classic, but then ended as a ploy to get us into D&D.
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  #78  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 11:17 AM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

If they had wanted to get us into D&D minis, they probably shouldn't have cancelled that line at roughly the same time...
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  #79  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 11:25 AM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
I will not argue this point any further, but I do realize that those worlds are D&D worlds. I'm merely saying that I don't believe they have any reason to be in HeroScape. I firmly believe that D&D 'Scape, although we will never actually know the truth, was at first, a continuation of classic, but then ended as a ploy to get us into D&D.
It came with packaging material advertising other WotC products. It's called "cross-promotion," and it's neither unusual nor sinister.


Really this thread could have ended with MI's post, but it didn't, so I'm posting too. Also, I reject the premise that Heroscape was "screwed up" by the D&D waves.


I was talking to one former player who was watching our tournaments at GC, and he was saying how much he still liked the game. "Look at those trees," he said, complimenting the minis and the terrain. "I love how heavy they are."


"It's because the trees are so heavy," I told him, "that they had to cancel the game."


It's ok. We have a beautiful gem of a game that went out of production in 2010. Its legacy is alive and dynamic thanks to fan support, principally from us. Was Heroscape's transition to WotC and D&D minis the *reason* for going out of production? I say no, and the burden is on the one making the argument - you - to demonstrate that it is so. As dok would remind everyone, "correlation does not imply causation."

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  #80  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 03:03 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

"Had to" is a tricky phrase there, DS, because it implies that the game was losing money. I'm not sure we know this to be the case, and I strongly suspect it wasn't. Now it probably wasn't making as much as they wanted it to. So it might be better to say they "decided to" cancel the game because the trees were so heavy (i.e. the production cost was so high). And that's fine too. I want the best return on investment I can find for my monies as well.

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  #81  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 03:17 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

I don't disagree with that, Bats. It may be that it was not making enough money to justify its continued presence in the big box stores, and it may be that the production values made it unprofitable for sale in small game shops. They did, after all, discontinue the production of the minis as well. . .

My point was that correlation - the introduction of the D&D worlds and minis, and the subsequent decision to pull the plug - does not imply causation. Every night I go to sleep, every morning the sun comes up; that does not mean that I am the reason why the sun rises every day. No matter what my kids think.

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  #82  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 03:22 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

I guess I'll jump in. I have no inside knowledge. Just the public statements. However, Rob D. has commented--I'll dig up the reference if someone insists--that it was making money at Hasbro, but not enough to keep the attention of a company that size. Margins were shrinking because of the cost of plastic going up.

Hasbro appears to generally about selling lots of product at smaller margins, so I imagine small increases in cost would really affect the bottom line. IIRC, (I've read these numbers recently, but may not be exact) the cost of plastic approximately doubled during the production time, up to ~80 cents/lb at cancellation in 2010. It's about about twice that now. Chinese labor and transportation costs are up as well.

D_S's heavy trees would indeed be a problem for profit unless re-engineered (which I suppose could have been done).

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  #83  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 04:07 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

I think part of the reason they made the smaller bases with the D&D 'Scape figures was to save plastic, but in the end, it didn't matter.
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  #84  
Old August 22nd, 2014, 04:08 PM
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Re: How DnD screwed up Heroscape

. . . or to simplify production by using the same bases they were using for D&D, which would have made a lot of sense.

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