Race for the presidency political discussion thread

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Bannister

Freedom is the ability to say 2+2=4

You really like bringing up 1984, don't you. First you replaced the word Thoughtcrime with something else, now this.

Note: it's one of my favorite books, so don't take this negatively.

[Gulp]

I think we should use Principal Skinner's Pledge of Allegiance:

"Hey America. You're so fine. You're so fine, you blow my mind. Hey America."

[guido]

Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher

I have no problem with anyone exercising their right to practice whatever religion they want. Worship a frog for all I care. As long as you don't force it on me and it doesn't cause anyone any harm, go for it. Freedom of religion. But, as soon as you start to force it on me I'll fight back, and hard.

That's the same way I feel about both religion, and the Homosexual agenda. I don't care what they do in private, but when they feel the need to convince everyone else that its okay and normal, and that I should accept and push their agenda, that's when I get upset.

As far as my feelings on marriage and gay marriage go, I don't think there should be legal marriages of any kind. The government has no business with a religious ritual. All legal marriages should be civil unions, in my opinion. That would remove the stigma of allowing 'heathens' to participate in a sacred religious ritual. I think far less Christians would complain about the subject if the word 'marriage' weren't used.

[Bannister]

Originally Posted by Jexik

You really like bringing up 1984, don't you. First you replaced the word Thoughtcrime with something else, now this.

Note: it's one of my favorite books, so don't take this negatively.

Yeah, I do from time to time. Actually I make a lot of references to different things. Usually just to see who is paying attention. Mostly, no one.



"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

Originally Posted by guido

That's the same way I feel about both religion, and the Homosexual agenda. I don't care what they do in private, but when they feel the need to convince everyone else that its okay and normal, and that I should accept and push their agenda, that's when I get upset.

Normal? Who are you to decide what normal looks like? Who are any of us to determine what normal is to anyone else? What most people think is normal is what walks and talks like ME.

Something that might not have occured to you but, to a gay man, being gay IS normal. That is what he is. No one asks you not to be a Christian so why should Christians ask gay people not to be gay?

Originally Posted by "quido'

As far as my feelings on marriage and gay marriage go, I don't think there should be legal marriages of any kind. The government has no business with a religious ritual. All legal marriages should be civil unions, in my opinion. That would remove the stigma of allowing 'heathens' to participate in a sacred religious ritual. I think far less Christians would complain about the subject if the word 'marriage' weren't used.

I wish you were right but I kind of doubt it. I am happily open to being proven wrong, but, no matter what you call it, I just don't think most Christians are going to be ok with it.

Bannister

PS. I consider myself a moderate, but I still voted.

[Fourshadow]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Go ahead and post whatever you want, as I think most folks have you on ignore anyway...

Except you.

[Sweetcurse]

Well Shieldcrusher, we all know the well documented cases of Jesus going around trying to get his name on currency and making sure everyone said his prayers everywhere. His campaigns to intitute prayer in schools were widely hailed as was his famed political stint as a hopeful local regent. He was also famous for promoting public law and campaigning in favor of politicans who supported his views.

Oh wait...

[Granite-M]

Originally Posted by Bannister

Yeah, I do from time to time. Actually I make a lot of references to different things. Usually just to see who is paying attention. Mostly, no one.

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

Normal? Who are you to decide what normal looks like? Who are any of us to determine what normal is to anyone else? What most people think is normal is what walks and talks like ME.

Something that might not have occured to you but, to a gay man, being gay IS normal. That is what he is. No one asks you not to be a Christian so why should Christians ask gay people not to be gay?

I wish you were right but I kind of doubt it. I am happily open to being proven wrong, but, no matter what you call it, I just don't think most Christians are going to be ok with it.

Bannister

PS. I consider myself a moderate, but I still voted.

See, if it were just a clean break between religious "marriage" and contractual "union," the argument would be much easier. If you want to get married, and have all the legal rights and priveleges associated, no problem: just go right ahead and do it. If you want to belong to a church that won't perform or recognize gay marriages, and can't (and, more importantly, shouldn't) be forced to, that's fine, too. There's no need to "redefine" marriage, insofar as each individual church goes. It's just a matter of the country recognizing the legal rights of consenting adults in committed unions, no matter what you want to call them.

And, yes, there would of course be people who would still say that the gays don't deserve to have the same rights and protections as straights. Those people are douches, because they're trying to relegate a segment of the population to second class citizenship. That's bad, m'kay?

[guido]

Originally Posted by Bannister

Normal? Who are you to decide what normal looks like? Who are any of us to determine what normal is to anyone else? What most people think is normal is what walks and talks like ME.

Something that might not have occured to you but, to a gay man, being gay IS normal. That is what he is. No one asks you not to be a Christian so why should Christians ask gay people not to be gay?

I think that is exactly my point. I am quite content to describe myself on a personal level as being the normal version of humanity, while believing that those that deviate from my perspectives, good people though they may be, are misguided. Even so, that doesn't bestow upon me the obligation to convert my associates to my way of thinking. I never said that Christians (or people of any religion) should ask gay people to not be gay, but I am in disagreement when those that support the Homosexual agenda persecute me for not believing that homosexuality is perfectly normal. I have gay friends too, just as I have Jewish friends, liberal friends and Onacara friends. Just because we disagree on various ideals doesn't mean I can't respect them as people, and it doesn't mean I wouldn't help them out in their own times of need. It just means that we have different opinions.

Originally Posted by Bannister

I wish you were right but I kind of doubt it. I am happily open to being proven wrong, but, no matter what you call it, I just don't think most Christians are going to be ok with it.

Bannister

PS. I consider myself a moderate, but I still voted.

I don't think anyone who is anti-homosexual, Christian or not, will ever be 100% okay with 'gays'. I do think, however, that removing the fuel from the proverbial fire will go a long way to douse the tension.

[Bannister]

Originally Posted by guido

I think that is exactly my point. I am quite content to describe myself on a personal level as being the normal version of humanity, while believing that those that deviate from my perspectives, good people though they may be, are misguided. Even so, that doesn't bestow upon me the obligation to convert my associates to my way of thinking. I never said that Christians (or people of any religion) should ask gay people to not be gay, but I am in disagreement when those that support the Homosexual agenda persecute me for not believing that homosexuality is perfectly normal. I have gay friends too, just as I have Jewish friends, liberal friends and Onacara friends. Just because we disagree on various ideals doesn't mean I can't respect them as people, and it doesn't mean I wouldn't help them out in their own times of need. It just means that we have different opinions.

So you can respect them as people as long as they don't ask for the same rights that you have or expect you to consider them as "normal"?

I don't expect you to change your religious views on homosexuality. If you want to believe that it is a sin and that those people will spend an eternity in torment, then that is your freedom of religious right. I will argue just a fervently to make sure you get to keep that right as I am right now.

What I do expect from you is for you to realise that now IS their time of need. Right now they are fighting for equality and would appreciate you standing beside them and acknowledge them as a "human beings" with certain "inalienable" rights. Even if you also consider them sinners.



Bannister

[Granite-M]

Originally Posted by guido

I think that is exactly my point. I am quite content to describe myself on a personal level as being the normal version of humanity, while believing that those that deviate from my perspectives, good people though they may be, are misguided. Even so, that doesn't bestow upon me the obligation to convert my associates to my way of thinking. I never said that Christians (or people of any religion) should ask gay people to not be gay, but I am in disagreement when those that support the Homosexual agenda persecute me for not believing that homosexuality is perfectly normal.

Exactly how are you being persecuted? If gay marriages were legally recognized, in what way would it subtract from the legal rights and priveleges you currently enjoy? Being asked to tolerate a lifestyle you don't support does not count as persecution. By your logic, it would seem that simply because I am forced to tolerate people who loudly chew gum, I am being persecuted. Conversely, if I were to pass legislation that would forbid gum chewing people from getting married, I would somehow be protecting my rights. Explain this persecution you speak of, in terms not of what you find offensive, but of what harm is being done to you.

[Roland]

I have a quick statement.

From my understanding of the teachings of Jesus, however minimal they may be were basically that you should love your fellow man, he forgave Judas, he believed that you should love thy neighbor, and spread the good word.

In the end it is up to God, and St. Peter who goes up and who goes down, we have no right to judge others and prevent their "happiness" if they are not harming another.

[yagyuninja]

Originally Posted by Bannister

Right now they are fighting for equality and would appreciate you standing beside them and acknowledge them as a "human beings" with certain "inalienable" rights. Even if you also consider them sinners.