The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Leaf_It]

As I understand it, they really don't like the idea of interrupting a player's turn, for a different player's turn. For this design to pass, you will probably need Swift Vengeance to activate on your own turn.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Dysole

I like the basic idea you're going for, but he would basically obsolete Kiova as I feel somewhat confident that power set is worth a lot more than 120.

~Dysole, who would be absolutely terrified of 6 move stealth flying 4/4s with double attack.

The idea here is that you cost him any higher and he becomes practically unplayable with the Imperium in any "typical" 500 point game. His power set is strong for the imperium, but that's a ton of points you're soaking into just 7 figures ( if you're fitting in 2 squads). Outside of an imperium build, he's still pretty solid stat-wise for a 120 figure that you could throw in as a bruiser in some other army.

As for the buff...It is significant, but quite necessary to make them remotely playable. as a comparison, Phantom knights are practically the same as them with just 1 less attack, but an incredible defense boost against ranged attacks (allowing them to get into engagement)...AND they're half the cost. Imperium may have the double attack, but again, you're paying through the nose to get those abilities. I know it may be hard to swallow initially, but truth is, you're only ever going to see 2 squads of these guys in a competitive tourney...unless of course the point total is around 550-600. I still feel that most competitive screen and shoot or straight up bruiser melee armies with more numbers will punch through these 7 figures.

As for Kiova...she's not obsolete by any means. She basically becomes a raelin that you send out into an advantageous position to help your Imperium. It's no secret that some heroes or units are better suited to help out certain units in different situations, but that doesn't mean she becomes obsolete. General Kuah becomes an important draft for the imperium, and Kiova becomes a more "optional buy" to continue to buff out the imperium or spend your points elsewhere. Even in a 500pt game where you don't take her, that still only gives you 100pt to work with to balance the army...that's really not all that much to work with, so adding her in really does synergize the army.

Originally Posted by Dysole

On top of that, it very much reads like a "fix it" unit rather than a unit that helps the EI more subtly.

It's no secret the Imperium don't see the table because of their brokenness - if you will. I think some units just never had enough time to recieve helper units or other synergistic units to fill them out. I'd like to think Hasbro had other plans to help them out but we never got to see that loose end tied. Thus, I don't really see a problem with adding a unit that is clearly designed to benefit a particular unit. He's still solid on his own to make it into other builds as a bruiser, but particularly designed to make the Imperium playable. Any subtle fix for the imperium I fear wouldn't be enough.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

As I understand it, they really don't like the idea of interrupting a player's turn, for a different player's turn. For this design to pass, you will probably need Swift Vengeance to activate on your own turn.

Like it or not, Scatter and Scurry are classic examples of abilities having these effects on your opponent. I see no issue with that. If anything it really makes your opponent think twice about his attack and pay for it when he does kill an Imperium.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Like it or not, Scatter and Scurry are classic examples of abilities having these effects on your opponent. I see no issue with that. If anything it really makes your opponent think twice about his attack and pay for it when he does kill an Imperium.

Scatter and Scurry are only movement based powers, rather than an entire turn. I know there is some big explanation of why you don’t fit in another turn in another turn, but I won’t try to go over it right now.

+1 Move/Attack/Defense is a hefty boost. It’s probably not horribly unbalanced either, but does it make sense from a thematic standpoint? I always felt the Imperium always answered directly to Einar or Kiova, and didn’t need to be lead around like the common rabble. I don’t know what direction you want to take with them. Good luck!

[BiggaBullfrog]

Yeah, interrupting a turn with a turn/attack gets really messy and a solid no. You could make it "move General Kuah up to 5 spaces. If he ends that movement adjacent to an opponent's figure, roll the D20. etc etc do damage etc etc." And probably add in "destroyed by a normal attack from an opponent's figure..." I feel like the power should also happen only once per turn - moving and "attacking" up to four times in an opponent's turn is a bit much. EDIT - in response to your post above, Scatter and Scurry just move figures. That's okay. Interrupting a turn with a whole turn is a big no-no.

While obviously a "fix it" unit, I do like that the focus is on strengthening the EI as individuals, as I feel that's how they should play (I mean, obviously trying to swarm with them is a terrible idea). I also like that Swift Vengeance encourages keeping Kuah on the front lines to do additional damage (and I might even consider requiring him to end his move adjacent to an opponent's figure with the power just to further encourage it).

My main concern is that it seems Kuah would replace Kiova. You can use her in the army, but it's probably going to perform best at point totals where it's just Kuah and 2/3 squads of EI. (Of course, Raelin also tries to replace Kiova, and Atlaga does a bit too, but we don't need to make things even more difficult for the poor girl.) And remember that "standard 500" isn't the only way to see how good an army is -- this seems like a potent combo to be used in a smaller start zone format.

I know you probably aren't looking to rework the unit, but if there's a ton of availability here like you said, one route that could be taken is making him an uncommon hero with a larger focus on swift vengeance, or maybe some kind of defender role that complements with Kiova's aura a bit more. Just a thought.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Scatter and Scurry are only movement based powers, rather than an entire turn. I know there is some big explanation of why you don’t fit in another turn in another turn, but I won’t try to go over it right now.

Agreed they are just movement, but it's essentially the same effect by interrupting the players turn.

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

+1 Move/Attack/Defense is a hefty boost. It’s probably not horribly unbalanced either, but does it make sense from a thematic standpoint? I always felt the Imperium always answered directly to Einar or Kiova, and didn’t need to be lead around like the common rabble. I don’t know what direction you want to take with them. Good luck!

The bio wasn't posted with him, but my idea behind him is that he is Kiova's brother. As part of the noble family, he is tasked with leading the Kyrie along with Kiova. As soldiers they would answer to their General, Einar or Kiova...I don't see an issue here.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Agreed they are just movement, but it's essentially the same effect by interrupting the players turn.

The bio wasn't posted with him, but my idea behind him is that he is Kiova's brother. As part of the noble family, he is tasked with leading the Kyrie along with Kiova. As soldiers they would answer to their General, Einar or Kiova...I don't see an issue here.

Ah, being a member of the roual family definately gives Kuah the authority to lead the most elite of the elite troops.

[Dysole]

Found the original post about why you don't want to do turn interruption

I'm not saying the Imperium don't need a fix it unit; I'm saying a fix it unit is going to be much less likely to pass muster through the process.

As it stands Kiova basically becomes the third best Kyrie you can put in your EI army behind Raelin and this guy. Phantom knights are one of the best units in the game and serve a different army purpose than these guys so I'm not sure the comparison is fair (although PKs and EI only have a base attack of 3 so boosted their attack is better and you get six of them a turn). It feels very strong although there are several armies where they will lose terribly, there are lots where I see even six figures (Raelin, Kuah, EI x2) doing a lot of damage.

~Dysole, who does want to emphasize she likes the spirit of where you're going

[Astroking112]

Expanding on what I said earlier, I don't see the thematic connection between a leader figure and inspiring the army in this instance. With Spartacus and the gladiators, it immediately makes sense, since the gladiators are otherwise ordinary men who were banded together by him. For a disciplined army like the Imperium, though, it feels much more contrived to me. Even if he is a member of the royal family, it feels off to know that essentially just having him in your army makes the Imperium so much better. I can see the boosts working well, but I think the power needs some thematic re-flavoring.

I think a key difference between movement and full turns is the simplicity. With Scatter, it is very clear when the power is activated and when it ends, and it's simple enough that players are unlikely to forget what was going on. Like I mentioned earlier, though, if an Einar Imperium dies in the middle of a squad of Ashigaru, I'm honestly not quite sure what is intended to happen. General Kuah could move out and kill Kato Katsuro, which begs the question of what would happen on the opposing player's turn. Even if the intent is just to skip the remainder of the player's turn, that feels extremely powerful and doesn't sit too well with me.

I do agree with the other concerns that he will replace Kiova. He has very minimal synergies with her and already improves their defense on his own, so I see little reason that a player would shackle themselves to her aura instead of going for Raelin or a solid clean-up figure. At the very least, in this state, I would probably rather take three squads of Imperium and Kuah before even considering Kiova.

[Dad_Scaper]

Much more likely to pass muster, dysole, or less likely?

[obfuscatedhippo]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Hi all. Pretty excited about this prospect. It's been a long time since the Einar have seen the game table, but with Empress Kiova's brother, General Kuah, we have a significant addition to the ranks of Einar's Kyrie. As the general of the Kyrie, he inspires the Imperium in battle. General Kuah takes great pride in his elitist soldiers and enacts swift vengeance on those who fell his warriors.

I agree on Turn Interruption. If you make Swift Vengeance a d20 power - like Engagement Strike - then you wouldn't be taking a turn with Kuah but you could still respond to the death of a Kyrie. Something like ..

Swift Vengenance 13
Once per turn, when an Einar Kyrie you control is destroyed by a normal attack, you may move General Kuah up to 5 spaces. General Kuah may only move if he ends his turn adjacent to an opponent's figure. After moving, choose one opponent's figure adjacent to General Kuah and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher the chosen figure receives 2 wounds.

I also don't like Inspiration being copied over from Spartacus - it tarnishes his uniqueness.

I do agree that the Imperium need some help but you might be over doing it.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Much more likely to pass muster, dysole, or less likely?

Hush you. :P

~Dysole, legitimately not sure whether to chalk that one up to tired brain or her phone's weird autocorrect (although this one is better than her old phone)