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  #2305  
Old October 28th, 2008, 10:52 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Imax, I thank you for taking the time to do some research on your own. And, what you wrote has some validity, as I will explain.

Three things I learned while earning a History degree from the BEST Military College in the United States ( http://www.ngcsu.edu/ ):

1. Know and understand the bias of the writer.
2. Whenever possible go back to the original source documents.
3. Place the study in historical context of the events at the time of their occurrence.

I deliberately chose the article I posted to see if anyone on the other side of the spectrum in this debate would (or could) do a 10 minute Google search to determine the facts. I know Phaethon and Superflytnt can. They have repeatedly done so in this thread. Consistantly the things I have seen demonstrated from the other side of the isle are a lack of coherent arguments, inability to support allegations, and inferior research capabilities.

So in conjunction with my more conservative brethren I present the following:

1. http://news.aol.com/political-machin...mark-impomeni/

Pertinent Paragraph Presented:

“Mark Impomeni is neither a journalist, nor a pundit. He is a citizen with a keen interest in politics and national issues. He brings an everyman’s perspective to political happenings and strives to find the subtleties of political strategy behind even the most conventional political plays. Mark is an ideological conservative, although not a member of any political party.”

So, I am well aware of his bias. The fact that his bias supports my own views does not invalidate his, or my, position.

I did find two neutral articles:

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/...e/25/83/58.php

and

http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/p.../REG/310139971

But, I chose not to post those for the reasons stated above.

2. http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2...hilarducci.pdf

Pertinent Paragraphs Presented:

“Going forward, I propose Congress establish universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts and the federal government deposit $600 (inflation indexed) in those Guaranteed Retirement Accounts every year for every worker.
Every worker (not in an equivalent defined benefit plan) would save 5% of their pay into the ir Guaranteed Retirement Account to which the government pays a 3% inflation-indexed guaranteed return. . . .
…The sooner we admit that our 30 year experiment with 401(k) accounts has failed the sooner we can use these precious government subsidies efficiently and equitably.“ (Emphasis mine) Pages 2 and 3 of the attached link.

And the following simply demonstrates to me that she is an idiot:

“American workers know we have a short term and long term pension crises but it is not with Social Security but with the voluntary, self-directed, commercial-account-based pension system” Page 5 of the attached link.

Anyone who advocates, or is in support of this belief is a moron. To think that the government can manage my retirement better than I can is anathema to all that I believe, hold dear, and strive for each and every day.

Further reading:

http://edlabor.house.gov/

3. We are in a financial crisis. During times of crises the government reacts. Often overreacts. This hearing, while an attempt to develop information on this crisis, I’m sure, has presented the government (and IMHO Democrats) with an opportunity to roll more of our monetary savings under their control. This is an event that has been brought on by Government mismanagement, apathy, and stupidity. It has also occurred due to private Financial Institutions taking advantage of conditions without a concern for good fiscal policy, long-term strong corporate positions, and a desire to foolishly maximize their profits and pad their pocketbooks. Together these events have provided an opening for anyone interested to expand government control of the people through their retirement accounts. This will not only forgo any semblance of reason, but it will be destructive to this nation in the long run.

I could go into more detail, provide more information, and present stronger arguments, but as SW8K said:

Quote:
We're not likely to change anyone's mind.


Regards,

Buddy Lee

"Out of all the ridiculous religion stories...the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big, giant universe...and we're all just here, just 'cuz. Just 'cuz." - Trey Parker

Last edited by Buddy Lee; October 28th, 2008 at 04:32 PM.
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  #2306  
Old October 28th, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

The real question we need to be asking our candidates is:

"Are you now, or have you ever been..."

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  #2307  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:00 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Lee View Post
...Superflytnt...

The only things I have seen demonstrated from the other side of the isle are a lack of coherent arguments, inability to support allegations, and inferior research capabilities.
Funny, what I keep seeing, from Pedro and now you, is a whole bunch of name calling and insults.

I guess all of use igits with a different perspective from you guys should be lucky that your here to shower us with your "truth".

Bannister, who doesn't care for those who feel a need to belittle others to compensate for their own shortcomings.

Just calling it like I see it Pedro.

That can only mean one thing. And I don't know what it is.
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  #2308  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:04 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannister View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Lee View Post
...Superflytnt...

The only things I have seen demonstrated from the other side of the isle are a lack of coherent arguments, inability to support allegations, and inferior research capabilities.
Funny, what I keep seeing, from Pedro and now you, is a whole bunch of name calling and insults.

I guess all of use igits with a different perspective from you guys should be lucky that your here to shower us with your "truth".

Bannister, who doesn't care for those who feel a need to belittle others to compensate for their own shortcomings.

Just calling it like I see it Pedro.
You will note that I edited that section before I had a chance to read your post. A minor change, yes, but it does take the emphasis off of what appears to be a personal attack. I did not intend to personally attack anyone. I simply believe that the Conservative viewpoint has been presented with much more logic, substantiation, and information. I have seen a lot of emotion driven responses from the more liberal contributors to this thread. That, IMHO, does not win this discussion. While emotions may be sincere, they tend to weaken your position when debating an issue.


If I have offended I apologize. It was not my intent.

Buddy Lee

EDIT: I have just removed the word "only" from the sentence in question. It now reads:

Quote:
Consistantly the things I have seen demonstrated from the other side of the isle are a lack of coherent arguments, inability to support allegations, and inferior research capabilities.
This is a more accurate reflection of my position. I am sorry if my writing/editing/review/thinking skills do not allow for immediate clarity of my thoughts.

"Out of all the ridiculous religion stories...the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big, giant universe...and we're all just here, just 'cuz. Just 'cuz." - Trey Parker

Last edited by Buddy Lee; October 28th, 2008 at 11:15 AM.
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  #2309  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:13 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

I think the problem here is this your-side-my-side approach. We may disagree, but pigeon-holing participants into one side or the other is unproductive and harmful to the overall dialog.

For instance, on Fair Tax, Buddy, Onion Knight, Grungebob and I are on the same side. On war in Iraq (and an awful lot of other stuff), Superfly and I are in agreement. On abortion and healthcare, I agree with Sweetcurse. Regarding taxes on 401k plans, Phaethon and I finally find a middle ground. There aren't really 'sides' until someone starts drawing battle lines. Saying 'this is my side and this is your side' emphasizes differences, and gets in the way of reasonable discussion.

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  #2310  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:19 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post
I think the problem here is this your-side-my-side approach. We may disagree, but pigeon-holing participants into one side or the other is unproductive and harmful to the overall dialog.

For instance, on Fair Tax, Buddy, Onion Knight, Grungebob and I are on the same side. On war in Iraq (and an awful lot of other stuff), Superfly and I are in agreement. On abortion and healthcare, I agree with Sweetcurse. Regarding taxes on 401k plans, Phaethon and I finally find a middle ground. There aren't really 'sides' until someone starts drawing battle lines. Saying 'this is my side and this is your side' emphasizes differences, and gets in the way of reasonable discussion.
Probably the most thoughtful and accurate post in this thread.

+1

Buddy Lee

P.S.:

Now this is something I thought I would never see in a politcal thread:

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to InfinityMax again."

"Out of all the ridiculous religion stories...the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big, giant universe...and we're all just here, just 'cuz. Just 'cuz." - Trey Parker

Last edited by Buddy Lee; October 28th, 2008 at 11:39 AM.
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  #2311  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
For those who propose a national sales tax, how is that not repressive against the poor? A tax on the poor buying things is much more likely to hurt than a tax on the rich. Are there paybacks for the poor? are there exceptions for staples like food?
Dude, fair tax is awesome.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...ame=about_main

First, poor people get prebates. Second, rich people spend more money, so they pay more taxes. Third, for most wage slaves, they'll actually pay less taxes, because while they pay more when they shop, they get to keep their whole paychecks.

Fair tax is awesome. Check it out and be awed by its awesome.
I still wonder about the prebates and the poor having to pay an inordinate percentage of their salary...

What I'd propose is a flat tax, built around the following equation:

Tax Amount = (Salary - standard deduction)*Tax Rate

There's no deductions other than the standard, there's no filing status (married, single, dependent doesn't matter). All forms of income are taxed at the same rate. It takes minutes to do everyone's taxes and it will fit on a postcard. And to boot, it's infinitely progressive.

The only thing to debate is 1) the standard deduction and 2) the tax rate. Is a $40k deduction per person and a 15% rate good enough? should it be $60k and 30%?

But these will never happen because the tax code isn't about revenue generation, it's about policy and control. Help out the automobile companies? Put a tax break for SUVs. Want alternative energy? Tax break for hybrid cars and solar cells.

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  #2312  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:34 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Buddy,

Other than possibly that once I honestly haven't seen anything that I would say is a flat out insult from you. You are accusing the "left" of being emotional and certainly I won't dispute that but I don't recall a "leftist" calling McCain names. I don't recall a "leftist" insulting the intelligence of the opposing side. Once measurement of "emotional" must certainly be measured in insults. If so, then I think that there is plenty of "emotion" to go around.

I am sure if you tried hard enough you would be able to prove me wrong, by showing me an insult from the left. But, I feel confidendent in saying that the "poop" slinging is coming from one side more than the other.

Bannister

That can only mean one thing. And I don't know what it is.
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  #2313  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:40 AM
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Buddy Lee Buddy Lee is offline
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannister View Post
I am sure if you tried hard enough you would be able to prove me wrong, by showing me an insult from the left. But, I feel confidendent in saying that the "poop" slinging is coming from one side more than the other.

Bannister
Yes. Yes it is.

Buddy Lee

"Out of all the ridiculous religion stories...the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big, giant universe...and we're all just here, just 'cuz. Just 'cuz." - Trey Parker

Last edited by Buddy Lee; October 28th, 2008 at 04:26 PM.
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  #2314  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:42 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

On the inability of Government to do the job right, this following story should be a warning of letting our government run things:

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindeale...t_of.html#more

In the print version of the story are the following two paragraphs with a quote from Barney Frank that I find most enlightening:

Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, said he spoke with LaTourette on Monday and agreed to familiarize himself with the matter. Frank plans an oversight hearing in November on the Financial rescue plan "and this could clearly be a part of it."

"This is not what we had in mind when we passed the rescue plan," Frank said when asked about Treasure picking winners and Losers. "I'm going to look into it."

So they vote for a plan, which most people understood to be a blank check for the treasury dept. to do whatever they wanted and now they try to say "but that's not what we wanted it to do!"

sigh.... maybe they should be forced to actually read the bills they pass!

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  #2315  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:48 AM
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Fezzikthedoor Fezzikthedoor is offline
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
For those who propose a national sales tax, how is that not repressive against the poor? A tax on the poor buying things is much more likely to hurt than a tax on the rich. Are there paybacks for the poor? are there exceptions for staples like food?
Dude, fair tax is awesome.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...ame=about_main

First, poor people get prebates. Second, rich people spend more money, so they pay more taxes. Third, for most wage slaves, they'll actually pay less taxes, because while they pay more when they shop, they get to keep their whole paychecks.

Fair tax is awesome. Check it out and be awed by its awesome.
I still wonder about the prebates and the poor having to pay an inordinate percentage of their salary...

What I'd propose is a flat tax, built around the following equation:

Tax Amount = (Salary - standard deduction)*Tax Rate

There's no deductions other than the standard, there's no filing status (married, single, dependent doesn't matter). All forms of income are taxed at the same rate. It takes minutes to do everyone's taxes and it will fit on a postcard. And to boot, it's infinitely progressive.

The only thing to debate is 1) the standard deduction and 2) the tax rate. Is a $40k deduction per person and a 15% rate good enough? should it be $60k and 30%?

But these will never happen because the tax code isn't about revenue generation, it's about policy and control. Help out the automobile companies? Put a tax break for SUVs. Want alternative energy? Tax break for hybrid cars and solar cells.
Did I miss a change of heart on Imax's part, or are we still talking about the National Sales Tax? [EDIT: OK, it was Phae who offered a counter point] "Flat Tax" and "National Sales Tax" (sometimes called the fair tax) are often confused because they sound the same but the two are very, very different. The former is basically still an income tax but one where everyone still pays the same percentage in taxes while the latter is a radical departure from the system where income (and thus standard deductions, a graduated tax rate, ect.) no longer matter.

In brief, you pay for what you consume, not what you produce. You therefor keep more of your pay and decide exactly where you want your production power to go. This has a load of potential benits, many of them beyond the most obvious; for example, it encourages people to save or purchase within their means, reduces the cost of items by getting rid of the imbeded taxes within each product, and makes sure that no federal taxes get slipped into the system.

We might disagree about some other things, but like the man said, the Fair (National Sales) Tax is awesome!

P.S.--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon
Maybe they should be forced to actually read the bills they pass.
DAMN RIGHT! This is why the moment any legislator starts talking about how a bill MUST be passed, RIGHT NOW, that you should immediately call your representative and tell him/her you are against the bill. Unless there are bombs falling from the sky and it is a vote to go to war, a Representative Democracy's legislative body never does the right thing when they pass something in haste.

You are the brute squad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grishnakh finally
And go Flock yourself.

Last edited by Fezzikthedoor; October 28th, 2008 at 12:55 PM.
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  #2316  
Old October 28th, 2008, 11:51 AM
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InfinityMax InfinityMax is offline
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Man, I've been a Fair Tax fan pretty much since I heard about it.

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