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  #133  
Old December 12th, 2018, 05:53 PM
Heroscaper 101 Heroscaper 101 is offline
 
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Your lawman units look really good.
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  #134  
Old December 12th, 2018, 05:58 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

If you do drop Guilty Conscience from Spider, I'd try and preserve that theme in the personality and switch it from Tricky to something like Repentant.

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  #135  
Old December 12th, 2018, 06:16 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
If you do drop Guilty Conscience from Spider, I'd try and preserve that theme in the personality and switch it from Tricky to something like Repentant.
I personally like this angle for conveying the theme a lot more. I just don't feel like we have enough Lawmen to justify a negative ability dependent on them; to me, those kinds of powers seem best reserved for either entire generals or larger factions like Sworn Enemy with the Samurai.
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  #136  
Old December 13th, 2018, 01:03 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Wow, thanks for all the feedback and warm thoughts, folks! LEmme see if I can respond to it all.

Kate:

My goal with all of these was to make them slick, simple, and scapey. As such, FtH was designed to be a lesser version of Nilfheim's SA - a popular hero with an easy to understand and versatile SA. The idea was a cowboy kicking down a door and spraying a room with bullets, thus the once-per-target restriction. I can see that being a little thematically odd, so if I did change it, I would probably remove the restriction - though requiring the same figure for each attack is also an intriguing direction that I would definitely consider. Right now I don't think I'll change it, but both of those ideas are on back burner.

Clayton:

The X marker restriction had a couple reasons. One was, yes, a simple balance concern. Shootout should feel rewarding to pull off, and having Posse work every turn would not only make it too easy to set up, but also would encourage you to just put all your markers on Pierce, turning the other lawmen into little more than "buff bots" for him. That didn't feel right.

The second reason ties into that a little bit: Pierce shouldn't be "Omegacron/Lao Xin, but for cowboys." While I love both of those heroes, it didn't feel thematically right for a diverse posse of cowboys to simply be controlled like that, and I felt an altogether different method of synergy would be called for. That included a limiting factor on movement bonding, for a "looser" synergy.

Jim:

Jim is probably the most complex of the four, and admittedly I could do a lot better getting across his theme and mechanics.

Lasso being "before moving" also has a couple reasons. The idea is that he lassos someone, and ideally attacks with his melee, when he has the advantage. With that in mind, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to run up to someone, then lasso.

Mechanically, you can choose what to do depending on if the lasso succeeds or not. If it fails, you can stay back at a better position, take a potshot, or just go in for the kill anyway.

If there's something you guys can suggest to communicate this a little better or make it feel/flow better, please let me know. He's one of the three I was going to try and bring to the SoV, along with Kate and Clay. Spider's figure count is too low.

Spider:

Totally agreed that Guilty Conscience is a little wonky as a "downside power", and I really like the idea of making him an Outlaw/Repentant with Rapidfire as his only power. It's complex enough to be his main gimmick. That's a change I can totally get behind.
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  #137  
Old December 13th, 2018, 02:29 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

The classic heroscape gave us 3 lawman army card's, "Guilty McCreech", "James Murphy" and "Johnny 'Shotgun' Sullivan". Got 2 outlaw army cards in the form of "Garrett Burns" and "Josie Whisletop" with custom heroscape. It is neat to see more lawmen.
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  #138  
Old December 30th, 2018, 07:54 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 11/13

There's a lot that I really like about your lawmen. The names and themes are well chosen, the mechanics look interesting and fun, and I really appreciate your attention to detail on the army cards. (I always feel a bit frustrated about things like the wrong font colors on size/height getting propagated year after year on so many other customs, so it's nice to see that matching correctly here.) I already had the mini for Clayton, and have just now ordered Kate and Jim, so I'll be following your project with great interest.

I haven't read all of the comments in detail yet, but I do concur with what others have said about Kate: fanning the hammer feels a lot more thematically solid when pumping lead into the same target. You can't really aim well at new targets when firing this way. It actually feels jarringly backwards to me that she cannot hit the same target more than once when fanning. If no-repeats is the gameplay you want, then I'd would it needs a different theme.

On Clayton, one thing that feels unsettling is how Shootout SA feels like it's trying really hard to pretend that every nearby Lawman is making an attack, when really what's happening is they are all just raising their hands and then Clayton is counting them and shooting that many times. It feels odd, and it will be counter-intuitive for Clayton to fire at figures he doesn't have clear sight on but some other Lawman has CS on. (Also, as currently written, it seems that each Lawman only needs CS on any one of the targets, not that each target needs to be in CS of one of the Lawmen — two different constraints.)

Things will feel odd whenever a figure being targeted has a particular interaction with, or requirements for, the shooter. Many of those aren't relevant during a Special Attack, of course, but some are. For example, if Clayton is adjacent to Tandros Kreel in a five-Lawman shootout, then Clayton is forced to shoot at Tandros every time, even though some or all of the Lawmen are not adjacent to Kreel. In fact, any time there's a "from an attack by an adjacent/non-adjacent figure" kind of context, it's going to feel counterintuitive to check vs. Clayton when, conceptually, it's Guilty McCreech that feels like he's firing.

Because of all that, I much prefer the general approach of Tom "Tomb" Stone that lets each Lawman in the shootout actually take a turn and fire his own weapon. You could limit them to using normal attacks if you don't want shotguns and fanning and such during the Shootout. If you also don't want things like tomahawks and lassos, you could say something like "Lawmen taking a turn with Shootout may not move or use any of their own special powers." I think that would basically limit them all to using their Range and Attack values to make one normal attack (plus whatever auras and such might apply).

This approach could also let Clayton participate in the shootout, which would feel more satisfying thematically.

The other thing that feels off to me is how Clayton is missing the Lawman class that obviously befits the badge he wears. It doesn't feel right, for example, that Garrett Burns can't see he's a lawman. I'd feel a lot better if his class were Lawman and his specials were written to affect/count "other" Lawmen. (I realize that some Scape specials are unnecessarily verbose, saying things like "Clayton Pierce cannot be one of the blah blah," but I would strongly recommend following the common-sense lead of things like Wyrmlings, Goblin Cutters, Saylind, etc. by simply writing "move up to 4 other Lawmen" and "Choose any number of other Lawmen you control."*) In gameplay terms, Clayton certainly is a Lawman; sheriff is just flavor, and it doesn't feel solid to use that as trick for exempting him from his own powers. (Plus you never know what future VCs or other customs might need to reference Clayton as a Lawman.) If you want to keep the sheriff flavor on the card (I know I would; it's cool!), perhaps POSSE could become SHERIFF'S POSSE.

* But really, I'd rather reiterate the opinion that you actually let the other Lawmen do their own shooting. Counting up your deputies and then firing your own gun that many times doesn't feel like a Shootout.

Despite my detailed critiques, I love this direction, and I too am happy for more Lawman synergy that moves them toward feeling like a "faction." Good work!


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Last edited by Just_a_Bill; December 31st, 2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: spelling fix; better examples; more detail on Shootout
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  #139  
Old December 31st, 2018, 02:43 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Clayton Pierce: Heroscape definitely needs this kind of Sheriff figure to bring the Lawmen together. Love that you're expanding the Lawmen at the same time. Posse's not bad, could possibly just be "once per round," and not need the 'X' at all (IMO, the 'X' is better reserved for powers that have ongoing effects that need to be remembered, a la Siege's Crag of Steel). I like what Shootout is trying to do, but it doesn't feel quite right. Requiring every Lawman to have LoS on every target is a bit clunky (when and how often will you need to check LoS?) and not necessarily thematic. Here's a try at rewording:

SHOOTOUT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 6. Attack 3.
After attacking with Shootout Special Attack, you may choose another Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce. If you do, choose a figure to attack with Shootout Special Attack within 6 clear sight spaces of the chosen Lawman. You cannot choose the same Lawman more than once per turn.

Shootout's normal Range of 6 from Clayton would still apply to the additional attacks, though I could see the argument for additional wording to that effect. My only other complaint is he encourages you to dump all your OM's on him, where it would be neat to see them spread around somehow.


Kate Crawford: Like that's she's a relatively cheap option. Love Grit. Thematically Fan the Hammer seems like it should only be able to attack one figure, instead of not being able to attack the same figure which would be far more difficult with that type of rapid fire shooting, IMO.


Jim Whitecloud: Extremely overpriced compared to Kate. Tomahawk is great. Lasso feels a bit redundant to James Murphy's Whip. Maybe make it a forced movement power? Like reduce it to 2 spaces and place the figure adjacent to Jim, which works nicely with Tomahawk.


"Spider" Schmidt: Great idea for an Outlaw. Twenty isn't spelled out in "20-sided die". I'd tweak the numbers just a little; 2-8 for one attack (35%), 9-14 for two (30%), 15-19 for three (25%). That gives him just under two attacks per turn on average, give or take rolling a 1. I like Guilty Conscience as a counterpart to Garrett's +1 attack vs. Lawmen, even if it will be pretty rare.


Overall it's a pretty good group. I think the Sheriff needs the most work (and to be fair he's the most difficult to get right, since he's not just stand-alone).


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  #140  
Old December 31st, 2018, 05:19 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Thank you very much for the feedback, guys! Lemme see if I can respond properly here:

Kate: I've come around to the theme jarring on FtH - I had originally meant her to be a low-cost, anti-squad hero, but I think you all are probably right in that the theme of FtH is worth preserving and the mechanics worth changing. FtH will be changed on the next pass I do of her.

Jim: I do see the idea that Lasso is a little too similar to Whip to justify being so mechanically wonky compared to it - a move ability would be very good, and probably worded more like Chain Grab to be cleaner? The only issue there is I wanted it to work on LArge figures, and Jim movign around Deathwalker seems a little odd.

Clayton: JaB, you are right in that he should be a Lawman. Embarassingly, he's a Sheriff class because, in MSE, "Sheriff Clayton Pierce" doesn't fit in the name box. I'll probably end up doing what you're saying and make the power name Sheriff's Posse.

I touched on this earlier, but the reason for Shootout being a special attack is (as you also tocuhed on!) a balance, simplistic, and novelty concern - I loved Tom Stone's approach, but I wanted to do it a little different, and wanted to avoid the overkill that might cause (with two Shotguns, Guilty's DA, Lasso, etc). Mandating that they can "only use a normal attack" might work, but that runs into the sort of out-of-turn attacking that the SoV doesn't like. It's possibly a mistake to design with the SoV in mind, but I'll admit it was a secondary goal in this project.

I do agree that there is a bit of a theme trip there in terms of the SA mechanically being Pierce but themewise being the other Lawmen, but I don't think mechanical edge cases like Tandros are super significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Clayton Pierce: Heroscape definitely needs this kind of Sheriff figure to bring the Lawmen together. Love that you're expanding the Lawmen at the same time. Posse's not bad, could possibly just be "once per round," and not need the 'X' at all (IMO, the 'X' is better reserved for powers that have ongoing effects that need to be remembered, a la Siege's Crag of Steel). I like what Shootout is trying to do, but it doesn't feel quite right. Requiring every Lawman to have LoS on every target is a bit clunky (when and how often will you need to check LoS?) and not necessarily thematic. Here's a try at rewording:

SHOOTOUT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 6. Attack 3.
After attacking with Shootout Special Attack, you may choose another Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce. If you do, choose a figure to attack with Shootout Special Attack within 6 clear sight spaces of the chosen Lawman. You cannot choose the same Lawman more than once per turn.

Shootout's normal Range of 6 from Clayton would still apply to the additional attacks, though I could see the argument for additional wording to that effect. My only other complaint is he encourages you to dump all your OM's on him, where it would be neat to see them spread around somehow.
That said I do really, really like this rewording of Shootout, and I think that does in fact help the theme issues that JaB mentioned. It feels more like each Lawman attacking, as oppossed to the "raise hands, fire once per hand" thing JaB mentioned.

I also felt like Posse being once per round would encourage spreading out OMs in a way that Omegacron/Lao Xin/even Tom Stone doesn't, but that may come out in more testing.
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  #141  
Old December 31st, 2018, 10:17 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I did some editing based on NB's wording and some other input, as well as changing the style in MSE so that the text looks better - I also edited Kate. Let me know what you all think.



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  #142  
Old January 1st, 2019, 12:32 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Very minor thing, but would Shootout SA now have Range Special instead of Range 6?
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  #143  
Old January 1st, 2019, 12:38 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I had a spare thought on Kate, but let me get my Clayton notes down first and then I'll post again later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
he's a Sheriff class because, in MSE, "Sheriff Clayton Pierce" doesn't fit in the name box.
I'd be happy to do the Photoshop work to format the title for you. Your design shouldn't have to compromise just because of a limitation in MSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Mandating that they can "only use a normal attack" might work, but that runs into the sort of out-of-turn attacking that the SoV doesn't like.
Actually, I was specifically avoiding out-of-turn attacking by suggesting that each deputy take a turn in which he cannot move or use any of his own special powers. In other words, take a turn but only make a normal attack during that turn. Although I'm suggesting adding a restriction against using special powers, there's already plenty of precedent for bonding that allows only attacking:
PRIMADON STRATEGIC ATTACK BONDING
Before taking a turn with the Gorillitroopers, you may first take a turn with any Primadon Hero you control. That Primadon Hero may only attack during its turn. If you take a turn with any Primadon Hero you control, the Gorillitroopers cannot use their Autocannons special power this turn.

GORILLINATOR ATTACK BONDING
After revealing an order marker on Zaeus, you may take a turn with a squad of Gorillinators you control before taking a turn with Zaeus. The Gorillinators cannot move during this turn.

FIREFIGHT
After revealing an Order Marker on an 8th Infantry Pathfinder, instead of taking a turn with a Pathfinder, you may choose up to three Pathfinders you control. One at a time, take a turn with each Pathfinder. During these turns, the chosen Pathfinders may not move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I do agree that there is a bit of a theme trip there in terms of the SA mechanically being Pierce but themewise being the other Lawmen, but I don't think mechanical edge cases like Tandros are super significant.
I mentioned the edge cases, but for me the problem is more fundamental. Some players won't really know who is actually firing, and for those of us who do understand that it is always Clayton who's firing, it doesn't feel like a shootout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
That said I do really, really like this rewording of Shootout, and I think that does in fact help the theme issues that JaB mentioned. It feels more like each Lawman attacking, as oppossed to the "raise hands, fire once per hand" thing JaB mentioned.
For me, your new version is actually worse. It does sound more like the other Lawmen are shooting, but now it seems like you really are trying to implement out-of-turn attacking. And maybe this illustrates the core issue that will always be standing in the way here: the more you try to make it feel right thematically, the more you make it sound like it's OoT attacking.

You have basically three paths you can explore:
  1. Implement out-of-turn attacking and make it crystal clear that's what you're doing.
  2. Have Clayton count hands and do all the shooting himself, and make it crystal clear that's what you're doing.
  3. Let the other lawmen take a turn in which they only attack.
Anything that tries to blend two or more of these options is going to be blurry, potentially confusing, and possibly run into rulings issues.

EDIT: I suppose there's a fourth option: combine Posse and Shootout into more traditional bonding, and just let all the Lawmen have a turn in which they "cannot use any other special powers" ... then you wouldn't have to restrict both SPs and moving. (Not saying that's your best option; I just have a tendency to try to brainstorm all the possible paths.)


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  #144  
Old January 1st, 2019, 12:56 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I do think that the "may only attack" thing would be the best solution here, but I'll need to ask around - I was under the impression that the VC didn't like that sort of bonding anymore, even if the precedent is there.
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