The Holocron of Admiral Ozzel

[Yodaking]

Just had another thought, since we see Vader force choke a guy when they are not even in the same room, you could just incorporate him being force choked into the Surprise Attack roll. Say on a roll of 1-2, the Surprise Attack roll fails completely and if you control Vader have Vader Force Choke him immediately from anywhere on the board. Then you don't need to keep the two of them close together or even fail to roll a skull for the force choke to occur.

SURPRISE ATTACK
After taking a turn with Admiral Ozzel, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card to activate up to 6 Common Squad figures you control that follow the Galactic Empire. Before you do so you must roll the twenty sided die.

1-2 Your turn immediately ends and if you control Darth Vader, place 2 wound markers on this card.
3-8 All opponent's figures attacked during this turn may add 2 to their defense.
10-16 All figures you control may add 2 to their move for this turn.
17+ All figures you control may add 2 to their move and 1 to their attack for this turn.

[Sheep]

I like YKs first post. Not sure able his second. Vader's already got the power in place so I think we should just take advantage of that using Cowardice.

[Tai-Pan]

I feel like Cowardice is kind of pulled out of nowhere. There's no indication that the man was a coward. The list of attributes include things more like stupid, clumsy and inept, but not cowardly. A coward also wouldn't really have a place in Imperial Command and he wouldn't have commanded something like the surprise attack on Hoth.

[Koolster25]

@Tai-Pan
I know he wasn't distinctly cowardly but until now I hadn't thought of another way to incorporate that power in.

How about we change the name to Distraction/Distractor/Distractive Factor/Surprise Element/Bait or something where the enemy focuses on the Sith Lord while Ozzel used the distraction to prepare the Surprise Attack? It's the same power but thematically instead of being a coward he is using the Sith as a distraction so he can set up the surprise. We could also add to his Surprise Attack roll when he is using the Sith Lord as a distraction.

[Tai-Pan]

As cool as it will be when Ozzel gets choked out by Vader, I really don't like bending a design to fit a situation like that. In my opinion, the power on Vader is cool, but virtually useless, as in, it won't happen too often. Vader is a shark-type unit who gets the OMs piled on him to kick butt. I've never had the situation where a hero is that close to Vader and attacking, because once Vader gets rolling, he's deep in enemy lines destroying everything in sight.

Furthermore, if we did get something good that offered Ozzel a bonus for being within choking distance of Vader, you'd still have to consider whether or not you would really risk it. I don't think I would, in most cases, even if Ambush were boosted. If Ozzel is going to get wasted by my own figure, I'd rather not draft him and take something else.

I think the weakness of the thematic coorelation we all want to build is that Vader is so limited in his Force Choke. That being so, I don't want to make a really bent design just to make the choke somehow doch be viable.

[Yodaking]

I agree with Tai as I have had a similar experience when playing Vader. That is why I just added the Force Choke aspect directly into the Surprise Attack roll. You roll poorly enough and he takes some wounds from Vader without having to try and marry the two figures together. You could even expand it such that if you control any Sith Lord at all and he bungles the surprise attack, that Sith Lord chokes him.

[Koolster25]

I disagree with Tai Pan. I would certainly use OMs on Ozzel even in a Vader army because if I have STs or something that's 9 attacks in one OM. Vader can only kill a max of 2 figures. Vader is good against heroes and Ozzel adds to your ST anti-squad attacks. Ozzel and STs take out the squads/screen.

I would even keep Ozzel near Vader so that Ozzel could avoid counterfire (and maybe a boost to the surprise roll should be added for staying close to Vader?). With the Vader, Ozzel, and STs pod even if Ozzel fails to surprise, Vader's intimidating presence will keep the opponents' defense the same. Vader falls to hordes, and 9 attacks is a good swarm counter.

[Sheep]

What about this?

SURPRISE ATTACK
Instead of taking a turn with Admiral Ozzel, you may reveal the ‘X’ Order Marker and choose 6 Common Squad figures you control that follow the Galactic Empire and take a turn with those figures. Before taking a turn with the chosen figures, you must roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll a 1-4, if you control [Darth Vader -OR- a figure with the Force Push or Force Leap symbol that follows the Galactic Empire], you must destroy Admiral Ozzel and all opponent’s figures may add 2 to their defense this turn.
-If you roll a 5-16, all figures taking a turn with Surprise Attack may add 2 to their Move and 1 to their Attack this turn.
-If you roll a 17 or higher, you may take a turn with 3 additional Common Squad figures you control that follow the Galactic Empire and all figures taking a turn with Surprise Attack may add 2 to their Move and 1 to their Attack this turn.

[Koolster25]

I don't think a bad Surprise Attack should destroy Ozzel. That seems a little extreme. Plus, if that were the case, I'd never draft Sith with Ozzel. I would just use a different Hero Killer unit.
Vader and StormTroopers are already used together because Vader kills the heroes and STs kill the squads (plus they're a thematic army). If Ozzel is going to be used with STs it makes since that he would regularly be included in a DV army. His low attack would make me want to keep him away from Vader if they were in the same army, and that's why I suggested the Distraction power.

[Sheep]

A bad Surprise Attack is exactly the thing that should kill Admiral Ozzel. That's what kills him in the movie.

I think you're mistaken in the fact that Ozzel would be unusable with Vader or a Force User. If Ozzel came cheap enough (and he would with a 20% chance of getting killed immediately with a Sith on the battlefield), say 80pts, you could get Vader + Ozzel + STs x3 for 540pts and 60pts filler. With that army, 60% of the time you're taking a turn with 6 STs with 2 extra move and 1 extra Attack, and then 20% of the time you're taking a turn with 9 STs with the boosts. Then even if you lose Ozzel, you can take a turn with 6 STs, no boosts, and for as long as your STs attack figures close to Vader, your opponents don't get any boosts either.

However, I do like your Cowarice idea, and I think it's justified...

When on the verge of defeat on the battlefield, Ozzel opted to surrender rather than risk death in continued combat. If he were to be interrogated, Ozzel preferred to betray his allies to the enemy rather than risk execution, attempting to justify his betrayal to himself later on.

...

He was confident, however, and he felt relaxed while in the presence of Vader...

So perhaps:

OZZEL'S SURPRISE ATTACK
Instead of taking a turn with Admiral Ozzel, you may reveal the ‘X’ Order Marker and choose 6 Common Squad figures you control that follow the Galactic Empire and take a turn with those figures. Before taking a turn with the chosen figures, you must roll the 20-sided die.
-If you roll a 1-10, all opponent’s figures may add 1 to their defense for the rest of this turn.
-If you roll an 11-17, all figures taking a turn with Surprise Attack this turn may add 2 to their Move and 1 to their Attack.
-If you roll an 18 or higher, you may take a turn with 3 additional Common Squad figures you control that follow the Galactic Empire and all figures taking a turn with Surprise Attack this turn may add 2 to their Move and 1 to their Attack.

*Numbers can be adjusted

Then Cowardice?

[Tai-Pan]

I'm still not into the Cowardice ability. I don't really think the theme of it works out. I'm next to a Sith Lord so I'm invisible, even though I'm a high-priority target? I don't like it. It feels more like an ability the Sith Lord should have, similar to Combat Challenge, than something Ozzel should get. It works well for 3PO, but not for someone like this....

In general, I'd like to steer the design away from trying to get him killed. No matter what comes of it, it feels like we're building this design completely around another single design, and that isn't necessary. Yeah, it would be like in the movie if Ozzel gets killed by Vader's Choke. If you want a reenactment, then move Vader to the front, move Ozzel to the front, make the attack and have him get choked. I don't want to base the design around making it extremely likely though.

[Koolster25]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

A bad Surprise Attack is exactly the thing that should kill Admiral Ozzel. That's what kills him in the movie.

I think you're mistaken in the fact that Ozzel would be unusable with Vader or a Force User. If Ozzel came cheap enough (and he would with a 20% chance of getting killed immediately with a Sith on the battlefield), say 80pts, you could get Vader + Ozzel + STs x3 for 540pts and 60pts filler. With that army, 60% of the time you're taking a turn with 6 STs with 2 extra move and 1 extra Attack, and then 20% of the time you're taking a turn with 9 STs with the boosts. Then even if you lose Ozzel, you can take a turn with 6 STs, no boosts, and for as long as your STs attack figures close to Vader, your opponents don't get any boosts either.

I wasn't trying to say he was un-usable so much as I was trying to say an instant destruction on a low roll is a real turn off. I was also under the assumption that he had the Cowardice power and therefore would probably have a higher point total than 80, since he would be hard to kill from range. I made many of those same points myself when making a case for Ozzel receiving OMs.

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

I'm still not into the Cowardice ability. I don't really think the theme of it works out. I'm next to a Sith Lord so I'm invisible, even though I'm a high-priority target? I don't like it. It feels more like an ability the Sith Lord should have, similar to Combat Challenge, than something Ozzel should get. It works well for 3PO, but not for someone like this....

I think you are misunderstanding the theme behind Cowardice. The point is that Vader is a much higher priority target than Ozzel, so Ozzel can sit back and direct troop movement like the Admiral he is. Thematically, everyone would attack Vader and ignore anyone else. Ozzel's not trying to exchange ranged fire. He surprise attacks to avoid return fire. He not someone to take hits from range. He also not invisible. Even with no hit zone he is subject to a number of special powers and attacks from range. Cowardice could be adjusted to take affect after a OM is revealed to allow the opponent to attack first if they win initiative or something if you guys think the current version is too strong. But bottom line I don't think this power is unthematic in any way. Also, I don't see this as a power a Sith Lord would have.

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

In general, I'd like to steer the design away from trying to get him killed. No matter what comes of it, it feels like we're building this design completely around another single design, and that isn't necessary. Yeah, it would be like in the movie if Ozzel gets killed by Vader's Choke. If you want a reenactment, then move Vader to the front, move Ozzel to the front, make the attack and have him get choked. I don't want to base the design around making it extremely likely though.

Cowardice is not simply there to get him killed. It increases his survivability in order to combat ranged attacks and his low health/moderately low life (both of which I feel are spot on). This design is not being built around Vader. It is being built around the thematics of the Empire, which are Admiral lead troops, troops take attacks not Admirals, and Sith are more important, and therefore higher priority targets, than Ozzel. This power is compatible with DV v2, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, etc. and isn't even limited to DV v1, so I don't see how this could be "building this design completely around" DV v1.

I would also like to stop and make sure that I am not coming off as mad or combative or anything (and apologize if I am). I am simply debating and am singly focused on ideas. I very much like what Tai-Pan has done so far with the design and am glad he signed up for the undertaking of this unit design. I am just making a case for my own ideas and backing up my opinion. I'm ok with disagreement. We all need to say what we think and give the logic behind it. If ever any of you seem to think that I am arguing instead of debating just let me know and I'll try to revise what I've said/am saying to not come off as combative. That said, I do not think at any time in this thread any of us have been arguing (instead of debating) nor have I intended for anything I have said to be interpreted in an argumentative way.