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  #4597  
Old March 25th, 2018, 11:49 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Killing your cost in cheap commons isn’t always the goal. Often times, wiping out 75% of the common core of an enemy build is more than enough damage to let the remainder of your army do it’s thing. Killing 12/16 KoW or Romans puts a real dent on those armies, often times takimg away that player’s ability to actually win the game.

Nilfy exists though.

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  #4598  
Old March 25th, 2018, 01:46 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

If she killed 12 figures of Knights, that would be 210 points, and I'd be amazed. She's probably better against KoW than Nilfheim, but still not good.

What are her good match-ups, Cleon? How many figures are people playing? She really folds hard to 4-figure squads, which used to be among the most popular kinds of armies.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #4599  
Old March 25th, 2018, 02:24 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Braxas A- -> A.

I've been thinking about this for awhile. I think she's too powerful in so many matchups. You can say she's a more matchup dependent figure, which I'd agree with that, but most of the time you'll run into matchups she's fine in, and not seldom you'll encounter matchups she'll dominate. When I build armies for competitive play the question 'how will this do against Braxas?' comes up almost every time. Her bad matchups mostly have to do with the Q's and other big figures, but moreso when people run more than one in the same army (which isn't often). And of course you have the rest of your ~290pt. to combat that.

I feel like with Braxas you're going to run into matchups where it's heavily in her favor significantly more than matchups where she's at a disadvantage, and most of the time you'll have matchups where it's pretty even and she'll do fine. So yes, she's pretty matchup dependent, but the vast majority of the time you'll have a match that's fine to amazing. Unlike Cyprien; he has higher probability in running into bad matchups.

That's my feelings on it
I think Braxas is kinda bad tbh. In 2016 when I thought I went low with Romans and you went "high" tier with Braxas +2x rats and other assorted high price uniques, I honestly think the Romans were a stronger and more cohesive force. Braxas has a lot of trouble killing her weight in cheap commons, and can't do anything against Q9.

Granted, Greenscales make her waaaay better. But Nilfheim is better for the cost.
Yeah, but there's pretty much no one better against Agents (Krav loathe her), Samurai and Kyrie, and she can hold her own against most forces to a degree, certainly with Greenscale backup. Nilf might be generally a bit better and cheaper, but Braxas slaughters elite squaddies so well it's silly, while still being generally effective.


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  #4600  
Old March 26th, 2018, 09:04 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

I don't feel like Agents are something you need to specifically build against unless you expect R˙chean to contest you for the final table.

Sure, Braxas is best, but KoW + Gilbert, Deathreavers, any other melee squad with an initiative switch, even Nilfheim in melee can do the trick to at least break the squad up. And if Raelin isn't in the picture, even 4 shots from 4th Mass/Redcoats will kill one about half the time. (I'm making that statistic up, but it certainly happens).

Edit: ran the numbers... 4 mass shooting at Krav on equal ground without Raelin. Each shot has a 22% (8/27 *.75) chance to kill. The odds of 4 shots missing is (7/9)^4... so about 36%. So it's actually a 63% chance to kill one in a turn. Not bad luck at all on the Krav's part!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; March 26th, 2018 at 03:51 PM.
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  #4601  
Old March 26th, 2018, 09:53 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

One other massive advantage Braxas has over Nilfheim is that Poisonous Acid Breath is unaffected by adjacency - especially since neither that nor Ice Shard Breath can be used on the same figure more than once a turn, not being an attack is a big boost. I think you'll probably find Braxas much better against knights than Nilfheim if you try engaging Nilf with one knight at a time - at that stage, Nilfheim has to risk a leaving engagement (especially painful vs. knights, due to A Coward's Reward), resort to his normal attack to guarantee a kill but lose the multiple attacks, or risk the multi attack and have the remaining attacks wasted if he fails to kill the first knight - without stat bonuses, the odds are in his favour, but not by much. Braxas can just keep blazing away with PAB without ever having to worry about engagement.


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  #4602  
Old March 26th, 2018, 03:42 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

That does make it useful, but Ice Shard Breath isn't that bad against Knights either, and it has one more range, which can help Nilfheim avoid adjacency longer than Braxas can.

Using Sisyphus' tables, a 4v4 has about 56% chance of causing a wound, while PAB is a 65% chance. But against things with lower defense, Nilfheim becomes better.

We could argue this in circles for awhile, finding certain match-ups where each is better. I like Nilfheim better (I could say that compared to a lot of units, including many better ones), but right now, they're both A-, which I think is fair enough. Points and what you expect to face will determine which you should take. Nilfheim is a better generalist, and Braxas oscillates between feeling broken and feeling too expensive depending on the match-up.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #4603  
Old March 29th, 2018, 04:43 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Here's the thing: if Nilfheim's and Braxas' point costs were reversed, Nilfheim would still be the better choice. Nilf should absolutely be an A, Braxas is good as a solid A-.

Braxas Advantages:
1. Ridiculous against Agents: was the toughest matchup I play tested against when I ran straight Agents in the main event a few years back- basically had to sacrifice KMA and Nakita followed by closing shots with Skahen, Skahen + Raelin had to close out the game- very tough.
2. Non-adjancency with PAB vs. Ice Shard: a minor advantage, you really shouldn't be letting your dragon get engaged regardless.
3. More nimble sculpt: my biggest problem with Nilf is that he can have trouble fitting into key perches on specific maps.

Nilfheim Advantages:
1. Better survivability: this is mostly based on personal experience. Braxas' 3 defense is so soft, a butter knife will slide through. It's the same with melee squads like Knights: the bump from 3 to 4 defense is huge in practice, especially against range.
2. Higher range: pretty self-explanatory, but kiting is much stronger with Nilf's 5th range.
3. Better special: ISB shreds.
4. Less matchup-dependent: PAB is trash vs Wyrmlings and Hounds, both being common in today's meta.
5. 6th Attack die: this gives Nilf the ability to take out problematic large figures, from enemy Dragons to Majors to anything else.

TL;DR: Braxas is better in the Agent matchup. Nilfheim is better in every other competitive matchup. No, Kyrie are not competitive.

It's also worth noting that I've never (at least that I can remember) lost to Braxas in a competitive environment. I'm very happy when I run into a Braxas. I'm not happy when I hit a Nilf.
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  #4604  
Old March 31st, 2018, 03:44 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Well,

I think Braxas is so powerful because she bypasses so much of what high level play encompasses - high defense and smart engagement. Raelin is arguably the best figure in the game, very common in competitive play, and Braxas completely gets around her. Her ability works the same against figures with height, which so much of high level play revolves around. Engagement stops her movement but doesn't nullify her ability.

Braxas, in my opinion, needs to stay on the board a long time to fully abuse her. Killing your opponent's hard earned position and taking advantage of disengagements to safety (8 life is amazing) is nasty. I usually slow roll her, because once I take out a certain amount of my opponent's army (obviously depends on the army) and board position, then towards endgame it becomes more and more a free win.

If you rush in with her and see how much she kills, which is fine it's not a bad tactic, then I'd say she's probably an A-. But if you fully abuse her and her longevity, I think she's deservedly an A.

Thinking about the top/high tiers matchups...

I think she does fine into melee. Dragons and figures that can dance around the board have a general edge on melee. Knight's and Orcs have high defense, which doesn't matter to her, and often other melee uses Raelin in high level play (Orcs too), which doesn't do anything against her. She fears fast swarm melee, but in higher level play, that's not as common. Knights can be swarmy but I think she goes pretty even with them. Greenscales are her worst melee matchup imo.

Obviously Uniques and beefy squads are her specialty. I don't think these are that uncommon in competitive play. Don't really need to explain why she's great against them. And certainly the Krav are common.

Braxas + rats might be the Trons' worst matchup. I played Deroche with his army (Trons + Raelin) against mine (Braxas, Hydra, rats, MW) in top 8 RtW and couldn't do anything, and he barely used the hydra. Thats a miserable matchup for Trons+Raelin. Her acid breath just annihilates the dual squad's tempo and army dependencies.

I don't think Phantom Knights pose a problem for her.

4th Mass/10th Reg isn't a favorable matchup but again, I don't think she does that bad into it. 4th/10th advantage but Braxas can kill probably at least 140-175pt. on average. And you have ~290pt. also in your army to combat this remember.

And her worst matchup imo is against armies that have multiple big heroes in them (Q's, dragons, hydra, krug, etc.). But most of the time you only see about one per army, if they have one. More than one isn't that common. She definitely loses the matchup (but isn't useless, she still is a 5/3 8 life with flying figure, she can still do some damage). She doesn't do so hot into very heavy elemental or wyrmling armies, but those armies are extremely rare.

Overall, I think she's a phenomenal figure. Most matchups she does fine in, her bad matchups you won't run into often, and you'll certainly run into matchups where she'll be dominant.

Also just an overlooked perk about her is her acid kills small/medium heroes at 17 or higher, that's not that unlikely. It does happen. And can really screw over bonding melee or just an army that wants raelin against the rest of your army.

Last edited by Cleon; March 31st, 2018 at 04:11 AM.
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  #4605  
Old March 31st, 2018, 04:03 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Here's the thing: if Nilfheim's and Braxas' point costs were reversed, Nilfheim would still be the better choice. Nilf should absolutely be an A, Braxas is good as a solid A-.

Braxas Advantages:
1. Ridiculous against Agents: was the toughest matchup I play tested against when I ran straight Agents in the main event a few years back- basically had to sacrifice KMA and Nakita followed by closing shots with Skahen, Skahen + Raelin had to close out the game- very tough.
2. Non-adjancency with PAB vs. Ice Shard: a minor advantage, you really shouldn't be letting your dragon get engaged regardless.
3. More nimble sculpt: my biggest problem with Nilf is that he can have trouble fitting into key perches on specific maps.

Nilfheim Advantages:
1. Better survivability: this is mostly based on personal experience. Braxas' 3 defense is so soft, a butter knife will slide through. It's the same with melee squads like Knights: the bump from 3 to 4 defense is huge in practice, especially against range.
2. Higher range: pretty self-explanatory, but kiting is much stronger with Nilf's 5th range.
3. Better special: ISB shreds.
4. Less matchup-dependent: PAB is trash vs Wyrmlings and Hounds, both being common in today's meta.
5. 6th Attack die: this gives Nilf the ability to take out problematic large figures, from enemy Dragons to Majors to anything else.

TL;DR: Braxas is better in the Agent matchup. Nilfheim is better in every other competitive matchup. No, Kyrie are not competitive.

It's also worth noting that I've never (at least that I can remember) lost to Braxas in a competitive environment. I'm very happy when I run into a Braxas. I'm not happy when I hit a Nilf.
I'd take Braxas @ 185 any day over Nilf @ 210.

Kyrie aren't competitive? Sentinels and Minions are solid units, I don't think they're exempt from competitive play. I don't think Protectors are that horrible either. If you want to say a complete kyrie army (atlaga + lots of kyrie) isn't competitive then fine but the kyrie units are not uncompetitive (not talking about Imperium). Sentinels x2 + 4th Mass x4 is a strong ass army, as is Minions x2 + Q9 + Krav.

(In the comparison: )
-PAS having non-adjacency is a big deal, in my opinion.
-Better survivability is debatable. 8 life is reeeeal nice. It's not like Braxas has 6 life with 3 defense.
-Better SA is debatable. Both are really good.
-Nilf is less matchup dependent I agree but one of the points I'm trying to make is I feel Braxas's dominant matchups/scenarios will be more common and make up for her bad ones.

Also, I'm not saying Braxas is better than Nilf, I'm saying I think she's an A along with Nilf.

Edit: Didn't realize Nilfheim is A- here. Why is he not A? He's clearly an A figure. I know he's an A in the C3V Power Ranking, I thought he was also here.

So Nilfheim should be A (thought that was the consensus already) and I think Braxas should be as well.
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  #4606  
Old March 31st, 2018, 10:07 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

IIRC the power rankings were updated a lot less for the Dungeons and Dragons waves. I agree with you that Nilfheim seems to be A tier now; if you ran Nilfheim + Raelin + Greenscales against the best Knight build or the best GladBlast build it would be a fair game. Probably not the same for the A- figures.

I'm not sure about Braxas and I think that your argument kind of disproves itself when you admit Nilfheim should be a consensus A but see why Braxas could be controversial. Braxas is of course very good sometimes but when she runs into the A armies, even the squad heavy ones, she really suffers. Braxas armies will probably lose the game to 5x Knights Gilbert or 4x Heavies Grimnak Nerak even if Braxas does a lot. The figure limit that Gencon uses makes those kind of matchups impossible but I think for power ranking purposes they are really important
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  #4607  
Old March 31st, 2018, 11:57 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Some good points there, @Cleon . Don't agree with many of the points (ie Knights/Orcs/Dwarves should all beat a Braxas army pretty handily, really comes down to what she's paired with and not her), but I'm planning on releasing an article real soon that will talk about some key things in modern competitive HeroScape that are overlooked and especially relevant to this discussion.

Edit: also, we both know that those "kyrie armies" are great regardless what you pair with them, and has nothing to do with the kyrie themselves.

Last edited by OEAO; March 31st, 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old March 31st, 2018, 12:30 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Found a video of some kid playing Heavies vs Braxas/Krav.

Here's a video of some teenager playing Dwarves vs Minions. (game starts at 3:38:00).
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