Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

[Kaemon Awa] just seems to be a guy you think should be REALLY good, but his performance hardly ever lives up to his reputation.

With the following army:

4x Stingers 240
2x Deathreavers 320
Raelin 400
Kaemon Awa 520
Isamu 530

Spider_poison won the TTO III (a 60 person NHSD tourney), going 6-0.

Some of the armies he beat:

2x Minions of Utgar 220
2x Microcorp Agents 420
Laglor 510 (Clarissimus- went 3-3, losing to Joe, Slade, and one other: this was actually one of the closest games of the day, and Kaemon Awa played a crucial role in his victory)

6x 4th Mass 420
Airborne Elite 530 (kaboomboomboom- went 5-1, losing only to joe)

2x Knights of Weston 140
Nilfheim 325
Sir Gilbert 430
Krav Maga Agents 530 (Eclipse: 4-2, started 4-0, losing only to Joe and gibberish's 4x mass, 2x KoW, Sir Gilbert army)

Braxas 210
Raelin 290
4x Marro Stingers 530 (Jormi- went 5-1 on the day, only losing to joe)

Later, Lonewolf took the exact sime army (minus Isamu) to GenCon 2008, and got 2nd place. Scaper dude (lone's son) also made day 2 with the exact same army that year. Lonewolf beat Mattser's 5x Mass/ New drake army, as well as Hendal's 7x Stingers with the above. (yet he lost to Clarissimus' TKN on day 1- I'm never going to get tired of that story!)

Kaemon is very good at adding a special attack to a non-valiant common army who wants it.

Kaemon was also in Rÿchean's second place rat-podge army at GC 2007.

[padlock]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Jotun is the best 225 point figure by far, but he's worse than a lot of things less than him, including Marro Warriors. The reason it's different to be the best 10 point figure is because nothing is cheaper than he is. Nilfheim is an A because you can get Q9 for 5 points less, and Sujoah is a C+ for the same reason.

As my university logic prof was fond of saying, "it doesn't follow". What your wrote above can be summarized as:

If something is the best for it's points OR LESS then it should automatically be an A+

I suspect you don't actually mean that. In my mind, there is nothing better for 20 points or less then Marcu, but that doesn't make him an A+. Same with quite a few other units.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by padlock

As my university logic prof was fond of saying, "it doesn't follow". What your wrote above can be summarized as:

If something is the best for it's points OR LESS then it should automatically be an A+

I suspect you don't actually mean that. In my mind, there is nothing better for 20 points or less then Marcu, but that doesn't make him an A+. Same with quite a few other units.

That's a nice summary, but it's not what I said. (Also, I'm not the most logical thinker. [I'm nearly as much of an F as a T, and much more of an N than an S]).

If something costs more than other stuff, there's a lot more to compare it to. If when you make those comparisons, it seems really strong, then it deserves and A or A+.

Marcu is a very good figure. I think he's currently an A-. He costs 20 points, which is 10 more than Isamu; or looked at it another way, he costs twice as much. Is he twice as good as Isamu? Let's say that he's 50% better than Isamu. That still makes Isamu look really good for his cost.

EDIT:

What it all comes down to is how likely you are to want to put a figure in your army to help you win. Points don't matter once the army hits the table (barring scoring methods)- order markers, map, and matchup do. But the 10 points between them do make a difference, because (as green lanturn said) he can fit in just about any army.

If I have 20 points left, I'll want to take Marcu 70% of the time (the other 20% of the time he betrays me ), and Isamu/Otonashi for that 20%, [and 10% I've got Mass and I'm taking KG for Valiantness]. But if I have <20 points, I'm always, ALWAYS taking Isamu, no matter what, and there are few figures that I can say that about, at any point level.*

An A+ figure is a figure that has no clear substitute a majority of the time.

(Although I'm sure this definition will eventually get twisted around to mean something else).

A+ figures are really good. How's that?

*actually, it's not true for Valiant armies. I'd just leave the 10 points off.

[Sweetcurse]

I agree, Blastatrons should be A+. Awa is one I think should be a B+ as well.

[1Mmirg]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Since when can a filler unit not be A+? If they release a 10pt. figure that is has 10 attack and 10 defense with decent move (assuming it's abilities are not huge set backs), it's A+. I am not saying Isamu is that broken compared to the others and in general, I'm just pointing out that any figure type can be A+ in my opinion.

Isamu A+? Nice move Jexik.

But I still think Stingers are A+. To me, 4th > 10th, 4th ~ Stingers (meaning I think they're really close, but 4th leading; ~ = approx. equal), Stingers > 10th. And I'm one who absolutely thinks there are imaginary tiers within each grade, simply meaning if units are in the same grade it doesn't mean they are all equal. There is a general top to bottom. I wouldn't go as far to specifically rank them even further than their letter grade, but I think it is open to decide that a unit can be one of the better (i.e.) B+'s, or one of the lower B+'s. However, I still don't feel the 10th should be in the same letter grade as the Stingers, or Mass. The metagame (and begs ) boosted the 10th up to A (and other melee adjusted, etc. units up), and I'm fine with it, but to me it didn't change the A+ category enough to degrade a unit. Just my thoughts on that...and the other rankings look good.

As I was reading this, Jexik, I have to say that I recalled the many times you've said that only Raelin and Reavers belong at A+ (am I remembering that right?) and I wondered if it is time to consider a demotion across the board. I know that people get touchy about all of this, but I'd love to see how the charts looked if you pushed people down a bit, where A and even A- still represented some of the very best of the best. (E.g., what happens is Raelin represents A+, 4th posterboy for A, and the 10th for A- (for example)--then work from there to get the others about right.)

Course, it's easy for me to wish someone else would do a lot of work, but I can dream right? I'm just saying how much I'd love to see what you could do with this list if you worked on sorting out the top more and let the bottom (Ds and Fs) be your lower and relatively unimportant catch-all.

[Messenger]

And now for something completely different.

Okay, not completely. The current Isamu debate has got me thinking. What does "+" mean, or "-" for that matter. If you step back and look at the Ranking categories you'll see a jump in competivity (I just made up that word, stay with me) between the letter grades. Basically, A units are always competitive, B units mostly, C units sometimes, D units...forget about it.

However, I think we'd all agree that within each letter grade some are better (or worse) than others, hence the + and -. [Okay Messenger, get to your point]. My point is two-fold.

1) The Rankings were never meant to follow a standard bell curve, so we should not force it by limiting the number of A+ units based on a standard of perceived exclusivity (i.e. "the best of the best" mentality). If a unit is better/worse, for whatever reason, then it should be promoted/demoted.

2) I advocate a 'smoothing' of the curves. There should be more A+ units, and more D~F units. If they're great let's promote them; if they stink let's shove them into the Power Ranking basement!!

I'll start:

A+
Nilfheim
Marro Stingers
Krav

D
Templar Calvary
Einar Imperium

F
Shiori

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

As I was reading this, Jexik, I have to say that I recalled the many times you've said that only Raelin and Reavers belong at A+ (am I remembering that right?) and I wondered if it is time to consider a demotion across the board. I know that people get touchy about all of this, but I'd love to see how the charts looked if you pushed people down a bit, where A and even A- still represented some of the very best of the best. (E.g., what happens is Raelin represents A+, 4th posterboy for A, and the 10th for A- (for example)--then work from there to get the others about right.)

Course, it's easy for me to wish someone else would do a lot of work, but I can dream right? I'm just saying how much I'd love to see what you could do with this list if you worked on sorting out the top more and let the bottom (Ds and Fs) be your lower and relatively unimportant catch-all.

I was thinking about doing this very thing yesterday afternoon, but I'm also worried that it would bloat the B categories again, and make people think that a number of units are bad again (which they aren't). It might cause a cascading effect where the C categories get bigger too. I also think that Scytale would want to throw his computer out the window and send me an angry PM.

I'll think on it.

People have been saying that they don't think Isamu or Gilbert should be A+, yet I don't think Stingers should be A+.

[Messenger]

Here's another F: Obsidian Guards

For 30pts less you get the Capuan Gladiators who bond with three heroes and move a lot faster. To get their Range 3 ability they have to go into lava which means they're usually giving up height advantage to their opponent. And that's IF you're on a lava map.

[padlock]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I was thinking about doing this very thing yesterday afternoon, but I'm also worried that it would bloat the B categories again, and make people think that a number of units are bad again (which they aren't). It might cause a cascading effect where the C categories get bigger too. I also think that Scytale would want to throw his computer out the window and send me an angry PM.

I'll think on it.

People have been saying that they don't think Isamu or Gilbert should be A+, yet I don't think Stingers should be A+.

Jexik,

While it's great that you seek input from the community, ultimately, these are your ratings, and you have to go with what you believe. Trying to find find a consensus amongst so many divergent opinions is a maddening and most likely futile task. You're never going to make everybody happy.

While I personally disagree with a number of the ratings, I think, overall, you're doing a fantastic job, and can't imagine anyone else doing any better.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to keep this going.

[Sweetcurse]

Jexik, I just cannot agree with you on the Stingers. I have had ONE bad tourney with them, but every other time I use they come through with flying colors. Relieble, cheap and powerful.

I think the KMA should be an A+ as well.

Lastly...down with Migol! Stick in the C's where he belongs.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Stingers are very overrated IMO. I think they're B+ material at the very best.

[Messenger]

For that matter, let's make the Knights of Weston A+. They are the best Melee squad (thanks to Gilbert). They deserve it.

And Sonya Esenwein should be somewhere in the B category. Cyprien can do fine without her (althought the boost is nice). She can't hold her own up in the A's.

More D's: Empress Kiova. She only boosts one squad...and they are not good. Grok Riders, a.k.a. dwarf bait.