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  #61  
Old July 11th, 2022, 09:41 AM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
If the Dzu-Teh chose to Glacier Traverse to the X-marked space in the image above, ending engaged to the same figure it was originally engaged with, would it still take a Leaving Engagement Attack from that figure?

I would assume yes, because its using Glacier Traverse to temporarily leave the board and reenter, similar to Flying.

Saylind's Spear of Summoning also uses the "move to" language, while specifying no LEAs.
As a general question, "move to" reads as "place". Is there a difference?
In your example, the Dzu-Teh would not take a leaving engagement attack because it did not leave the engagement, and the Glacier Traverse power does not have the same "when X starts to fly, if X is engaged X will take any leaving engagement attacks" language as Flying. Saylind's Spear of Summoning has similar language clarifying leaving engagement attacks.

As for "moving" and "placing," I believe they are generally the same, but I'm not absolutely sure. @Scytale ?
"Moving" and "placing" are one and the same.

I'm not certain of the designers' intention with Glacier Traverse, but Flying is pretty special. I would rule that no leaving engagement attack occurs. But I would have to discuss with the Rules Team to be sure.
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  #62  
Old July 11th, 2022, 11:05 AM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

“Swarm of the Marro”
If a Marro Drudge passes under a figure while Swamp Water Tunneling, would it take any leaving engagement attacks?
No. It would only take leaving engagement attacks from any figure(s) it was engaged with before using Swamp Water Tunnel. While Tunneling, it does not take any additional leaving engagement attacks.





Leaving Engagement Attacks are rolled "before using Swamp Water Tunneling," so in the above examples, the figures using Swamp Water Tunneling, Shadow Dance and Underground Movement would take LEAs.

Although the cards do specify this, with the wording,

"If Name is engaged when it starts its Power, it will take any leaving engagement attacks,"

and Glacier Traverse does not, we do know that Glacier Traverse does not protect against LEAs, and functions as a "place" power. Even without the text, isn't taking LEAs still true by being the default?
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  #63  
Old July 11th, 2022, 02:26 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
As a general question, "move to" reads as "place". Is there a difference?
As for "moving" and "placing," I believe they are generally the same, but I'm not absolutely sure. @Scytale ?
"Moving" and "placing" are one and the same.

I was referring to powers that use "move to" or "move... to", like the Dzu-Teh, Saylind, and the Glyph of Erland (Summoning). Heirloom does this with Glyphs as well.
"Move to" basically acts like placing, where counting elevation, considering height, having a specific movement path don't matter, and you move over other figures, terrain and obstacles.


There's a power in AotP where the movement portion is very similar to Tul-Bak-Ra's Teleportation, except that Nahiri's uses "move to", and Tul-Bak-Ra uses "place".



Last edited by toyhandle; July 11th, 2022 at 06:34 PM.
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  #64  
Old July 11th, 2022, 03:03 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

It is well-known that "move" and "place" mean the same thing in Heroscape. An official example like Nahiri is Saylind's Spear of Summoning, which uses "move" for a teleport. If memory serves, that's when the "move"/"place" questions first started arising. It matters for various powers such as Engagement Strike.
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  #65  
Old July 11th, 2022, 03:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Right, placing is a form of movement, but it requires taking the figure off the battlefield to place it on the chosen space on the battlefield, which means leaving engagement (except in the case of Mage Hand, which places glyphs).

Saylind is one of my examples of "move to" = "place"

Spear of Summoning: After moving and before attacking, choose any figure you control on the battlefield, then roll the 20‑sided die. If you roll a 1‑8, nothing happens. If you roll a 9‑20, move the chosen figure to any space adjacent to Saylind. If the summoned figure is engaged, the figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

Glacier Traverse: If a Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, the Dzu‑Teh may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Dzu‑Teh you control each turn. To Glacier Traverse, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain.

Summoning: When one of your figures stops here, you may "summon" any other figure (yours or your opponent's) by moving it to a space adjacent to the figure on the Glyph. The summoned figure does not receive a leaving engagement roll if it was engaged. Note: If there is no empty adjacent space, you can't use the Summon power.

Mage Hand: After moving and before attacking with Heirloom, you may choose a Treasure Glyph on an unoccupied space within 4 spaces of Heirloom. You may move that Treasure Glyph onto any empty same-level space adjacent to Heirloom. Symbol-side-up Treasure Glyphs cannot be revealed, and a power-side-up Treasure Glyph must be placed power-side-up when moved by Mage Hand.
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  #66  
Old July 11th, 2022, 03:42 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Sorry, hope this doesn't come across as spamming. Just coming up with visuals.

Originally Posted by ChaosChild
The Nakitas get to roll for engagement strike if a figure is summoned, thrown, or otherwise placed adjacent to them.

We know that Swamp Water Tunneling takes LEAs, and does so with all figures its engaged with before moving with SWT. So in the example below, it would take the LEA before moving, and Arkmer would roll for Engagement Strike once the Marro is placed.


And although the card doesn't specify about LEAs for Dzu-Teh, the FAQ confirms that it does take LEAs, so the same thing would happen below, with both an LEA before moving, and Engagement Strike after placing.
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  #67  
Old July 11th, 2022, 03:57 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
And although the card doesn't specify about LEAs for Dzu-Teh, the FAQ confirms that it does take LEAs, so the same thing would happen below, with both an LEA before moving, and Engagement Strike after placing.
The FAQ says this:
Q: If a Dzu-Teh is engaged to an opponent‟s figure, and uses Glacier Traverse to leave the engagement, is it subject to a leaving engagement attack?
A: Yes, the Dzu-Teh would still take a leaving engagement attack from the figure it was engaged with.
That specifically says "to leave the engagement." Moving to another space adjacent to the figure does not leave engagement, so this ruling does not apply to the question at hand.

The fact that powers like Swamp Water Tunnel specifically say they cause LEAs when they "start to tunnel," and Glacier Traverse does not, is indicative of a difference. "Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say" is a common (though at times incorrect) motto for situations like this. I'd say the Dzu-Teh remains engaged during the Glacier Traverse movement.

Realistically, though, it's just a poorly-worded power. Later powers did similar things in a way that makes more sense.
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  #68  
Old July 11th, 2022, 04:46 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

I wish the Dzu-Teh FAQ wasn't such a pointed question. Its a lot easier to answer whether or not it left engagement if its no longer engaged after using the power.

It just seems odd and messy that Saylind and the Summoning glyph, both of which share the Dzu-Teh's "move to a space adjacent to ___" language, while specifying no LEAs, can summon the Dzu-Teh to the X-Marked space, taking no LEAs, but triggering Arkmer's Engagement Strike,
and for the Dzu-Teh to Glacier Traverse to the same spot, take an LEA from Syvvaris, but avoiding both the LEA and Engagement Strike from Arkmer.
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  #69  
Old July 11th, 2022, 05:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

I agree with Toyhandle here and disagree with Scytale. The Dzu-Teh is leaving engagement just like a Marro does with Swamp Water Tunneling.

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  #70  
Old July 11th, 2022, 06:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh



From the first sentence, the Dzu-Teh doesn't move through the Glacier to move around the figure its engaged with. It chooses a space adjacent to the Glacier, and is placed there, so it has to be leaving engagement with every figure its engaged with.
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  #71  
Old July 11th, 2022, 08:36 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post


From the first sentence, the Dzu-Teh doesn't move through the Glacier to move around the figure its engaged with. It chooses a space adjacent to the Glacier, and is placed there, so it has to be leaving engagement with every figure its engaged with.
I followed all of that until your final sentence, which seems to be the opposite conclusion. It's the same for a normal space-to-space movement; the figure doesn't flow from one space to the other, it chooses a space adjacent to its current position, and is placed there. For that case, if both the starting space and the chosen space are adjacent to an opponent's figure, it is engaged both before and after engagement and thus does not leave engagement. Same thing with the Glacier movement.
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  #72  
Old July 11th, 2022, 10:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

"Move around an opponent's figure that it is engaged with" means using basic movement. Counting consecutive spaces and elevations, considering height, not moving through terrain, obstacles, opponent or engaged figures, etc.

That's not what Dzu-Teh, or any of the like-worded powers do. That's why almost all of them clarify on the card whether or not they will take LEAs, because they are all certainly breaking engagement if using the power while engaged.
They "move away" from the board in order to use these powers to pass over/under to other spaces.

It doesn't make sense that the Dzu-Teh would be the one exception to the rule, when all other like-worded powers function this way.

It's not all about the engagement status once you arrive on a space, its also about the method used to move there. That's why there's all these examples of moving to the opposite side of a figure, while still Leaving Engagement with that figure to get there

Last edited by toyhandle; July 12th, 2022 at 04:44 AM.
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