Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

Maybe the Green should have Poison SA and Counterstrike (or just 5 Defense) just to make everyone happy.

I doubt people would go for that, but it could be fun.

Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 2

Fledgling Poison Breath Special Attack
Range 5. Attack 3.
If this Green Wyrmling inflicts at least 1 wound with Fledgling Poison Breath Special Attack, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, add one additional wound marker to the defending figure's army card.

Fledgling Counter Strike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent small or medium Squad figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Flying
When counting spaces for a Green Wyrmling's movement, ignore elevations. A Green Wyrmling may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When a Green Wyrmling starts to fly, if it is engaged it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

The biggest problem with Counter Strike of any form on a Common unit is that Raelin exists. It's pretty easy for such a power to become oppressive against melee armies. Samurai Archers with Raelin can be crushing against some armies, but their poor attack power holds them back in general.

[Shiftrex]

Ah yes, pure chaos

To be honest, if there was a large green dnd dragon in our canon (most consider VC canon so I call it that) then I'd personally want the same thing. I understand your perspective.

[Tornado]

They should have Fledgling Flying.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The biggest problem with Counter Strike of any form on a Common unit is that Raelin exists. It's pretty easy for such a power to become oppressive against melee armies. Samurai Archers with Raelin can be crushing against some armies, but their poor attack power holds them back in general.

I wonder though. Bonding melee could run heroes up . That leaves pure melee like dividers, vipers and ashra since zombies have a special attack. In a war of attrition each of these units have strengths.

I suppose you wouldnt only have green wyrmlings, but then I can't imagine only drafting those squads and nothing else. I'd be willing to test this out. At 35-40 points that would be an expensive and holely screen.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by wriggz

I wonder though. Bonding melee could run heroes up . That leaves pure melee like dividers, vipers and ashra since zombies have a special attack. In a war of attrition each of these units have strengths.

I suppose you wouldnt only have green wyrmlings, but then I can't imagine only drafting those squads and nothing else. I'd be willing to test this out. At 35-40 points that would be an expensive and holely screen.

A long time ago, before my tenure, a Green Wrymling design failed SoV judging due to counter strike being oppressive.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Scytale

A long time ago, before my tenure, a Green Wrymling design failed SoV judging due to counter strike being oppressive.

I red the review D_S down voted for reasons, and it had I think 5 defense. 3 or 4 defense on commons would be much less punishing, especially at 70 point for 2.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Scytale

They couldn't. D&D dragons have specific looks. It's like confusing different breeds of dog.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to you. I meant to 99% of the planet.



Anyway, here's our winner:

GREEN WYRMLING

5 Move
1 Range
4 Attack
4 Defense

35 Points

Spoiler Alert!

from Icaria on the forbidden side

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
For each excess shield a Green Wyrmling rolls when defending against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, roll an unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.

FLYING

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Anyway, here's our winner:

Yeah I’ve ran a couple tests with this one and it is a solid design. Useful but not too powerful. Helps fill out points and fix the space limit issue in the 4th army while giving them a potent but vulnerable screen.

[wriggz]

It's also worth noting 4th mass is not the dominant armey it once was.

[Grey Waves]

So with AoA failing and the SoV set to continue, I think it's about time to dust off this thread. The Green Wyrmling is imo the biggest 'missing piece' in the VC canon and as it currently stands, I think the unit only needs a couple of tweaks before it can be resubmitted.

If we look back at the downvotes the GW received during it's latest submission (which can be found here, here and here; we can ignore Scytale's since he's never going to upvote this version for completely different reasons), the common theme that emerges is one of complexity. Having to roll extra dice to establish the number of wounds inflicted after a successful defence roll was determined to be too mechanically complicated; this clashed with Dysole's and Superfrog's view that Fledgling Counter Strike should be a simplified version (not just a weaker version) of Counter Strike, while Bigga thought it was just a dumb power in general. Of note is that all 3 judges were not inherently opposed to the idea of a mini-Charos Green Wyrmling; they just thought that the Fledgling Counter Strike power needed more refinement.

As the main problem with the current submission has been identified as the mechanical function of Fledgling Counter Strike, I would like to propose a more streamlined alternative. (For the sake of transparency, this is not my original idea; I've heard a few people talk about it on discord and to me it seems like the best possible interpretation of the power).

Fledgling Counter Strike

When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent small or medium figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

This version is functionally identical to Charos' Counter Strike, with the exception that it doesn't work on large or huge figures. It fulfils the 'requirements' of Fledgling Counter Strike in that a) it doesn't have more mechanical complexity than regular Counter Strike and b) it's functionally weaker than Counter Strike in some way, shape or form. It also removes the (slightly unthematic imo) ability of the Green Wyrmling to counter strike foes of a much higher weight class than itself. Some have argued in the past that a Green Wyrmling with this version of Fledgling Counter Strike would be too strong a screen for a 4th Mass army or when paired with Raelin, but considering that 4x Green Wyrmlings would cost 120 points, I think those fears are very much overblown.

As a side note, I believe at least 2 current SoV judges gave their in principle support for a Green Wyrmling with this version of Fledgling Counter Strike shortly after the last submission failed; I know for a fact that @Dysole was one of those and I recall there being at least one other judge who did so, although who exactly it was eludes me. Anyway, the point stands that even before submission, this version of the Green Wyrmling appears to have more support from the judges in general than the previous version did.

So, to sum up, here's the full version of the unit I'm proposing.

Species: Dragon
Type: Common Hero
Class: Wyrmling
Personality: Valiant
Planet: Icaria

Life = 1
Move = 5
Range = 1
Attack = 4
Defence = 4
Points = 35
Small 3

Fledgling Counter Strike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent small or medium figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Wyrmling Bonding
After revealing an order marker on a Green Wyrmling Army Card, before taking that Green Wyrmling's turn, you may take a turn with one other Wyrmling you control.

Flying
When counting spaces for the Green Wyrmling's movement, ignore elevations. The Green Wyrmling may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When the Green Wyrmling starts to fly, if it is engaged it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

Thoughts?

[Tornado]

I think if AoA has taught us anything, it is that dragons and by extension wyrmlings do not need to boxed into a preconceived notion about what they have to be.
Free your mind and the rest will follow. Don't be color blind, don't be so shallow.

[Shiftrex]

Yup, that's the version that I was going to nominate again in December (I said I'd wait 6 months). Biggest issue is that the previous miniature has dropped to about 30 searchable copies that I've found.

Chill on discord linked me to a super cheap Dragon pack from Hobby Lobby that appears to be the correct size. I think our biggest obstacle is (as was historically) finding a miniature that sticks. https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Ho...ack/p/80959357

We know this iteration isnt busted in the slightest.