The Pre-SoV Workshop

[dok]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Actually midgame OMs on rats or Raelin is often a really good play as @dok will attest to. When you do those can very much be key to whether or not you win the game. Being able to flex those away is... really powerful.

~Dysole, somewhere in the middle on the "Ebol is bad for future design" argument

In my experience it's rare that you regret an OM on Deathreavers, but you often regret lacking an OM on Deathreavers.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by dok

In my experience it's rare that you regret an OM on Deathreavers, but you often regret lacking an OM on Deathreavers.

Though it's often your opponent regrets you having order markers on Deathreavers or at least is highly annoyed by it.

[vegietarian18]

I think Ebol is a fascinating design.

Order Markers are one of my favorite parts of Heroscape. I really love how you have to think three turns ahead about all the ways the round could play out and put together a plan that's okay at navigating through most potential scenarios. And I love that you have the X order marker to try to hide what your plan is from your opponent. Ebol completely takes that part of the game away.

As other people have mentioned though plenty of other figures take dynamics out of the game though. Engagement and not being able to move through your opponent's figures are great mechanics, and Phantom Walk violating those mechanics makes it an interesting power.

I am not sure exactly what the Ebol builds have been tested, but I don't think Rats are actually in the best Ebol builds. Rats are there to protect figures and figures need less protection when they can wake up whenever they want and attack. I think where Ebol really shines is with Toolbox type armies. Your opponent ever clusters their figures together? Looks like it's Heirloom time. Krav get too close? Looks like the Phantom Knights are going in. He allows counter figures to immediately and constantly punish your opponent if they ever give them the chance. Normally against these Toolbox type armies you can play against their OMs, but with Ebol they have no OMs. In theory I think these Ebol builds would be a lot of fun but in practice I think they might feel a little unfair to play against. He reminds me a little bit of the Hearthstone card Zephyrs the Great, who when played draws your choice of the best cards possible for the current board state, not just out of your deck but the entire game. It's not much fun to play against that card since you have to play around everything in the game.

Other concern for Ebol is that worse versions of this have kind of already been done and those figures get a little worse in a world where Ebol exists. Does he overshadow Omegacron as the Repulsor Sniper commander? Does he overshadow Command Couriers as Vydar hero commander?

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Other concern for Ebol is that worse versions of this have kind of already been done and those figures get a little worse in a world where Ebol exists. Does he overshadow Omegacron as the Repulsor Sniper commander? Does he overshadow Command Couriers as Vydar hero commander?

ooo, very good point. That in and of itself (aside from the other dealbreakers) is a bit of a deal-breaker for me. Taking away the design space of another unit is a big no-no...and you're exactly right about how Ebol would do better with these units than their intended commanders.

[Sheep]

To add to the Rat discussion, I'm busting out the trusty Lowest Point Values per Overload Opportunities Added chart again. A little different display this time.

Originally Posted by Lowest Point Values per Overload Opportunities Added

3.333 Marcu (6)
10.00 Deathreavers (4)
10.00 Bol (1)
10.00 Isamu (1)
10.00 Otonashi (1)
10.00 Guilty (3)
10.00 Eldgrim (3)
10.00 Kira (3)
10.00 Kyntela (2)
10.00 Nagrubs (3)
10.00 Red Ants (4)
10.00 Yari (4)
10.00 Blade Gruts (4)
11.67 Seleena (3)
11.67 Maltis Tez (3)
11.67 Theracus (3)
12.50 Marro Warriors (4)
12.50 Tarn Vikings (4)
12.50 Beorn Boltcutter (4)
12.50 Brave Arrow (4)
12.50 Romans (4)
12.50 Greeks (4)
12.50 Goblin Cutters (4)
12.50 Marro Gnids (4)

It's important to note from this list that the Deathreavers are the only common squad on the list that benefits from Ebol. The rest are swarms or bonding squads. Because of this, the Rats can add 8 Overload Opportunities for 80pts (3 more than Raelin for the same poiunts and the same amount as Krug for 40 less points) and 12 Overload Opportunities for 120pts (4 more than Krug for the same points and 3 more than Bramcephys for 110pts less). On and on for each squad of Rats you add. It's also important to recognize that all 12 of those Rats have to roll for Overload individually and still subtract one for each wound they took to be destroyed. It's not like just because one Rat took 2 wounds and had to subtract 2 from the Overload roll that you remove 2 chances from Overload because of it. You still have 11 Rats and 11 chances to roll for Overload. That's not how it is with Heroes though. If Bram takes 2 wounds and subtracts 2 from that Overload roll, now his opportunities for Overload have decreased from 9 to 8, so on and so forth.

This is similar to Executioner but in the opposite way. With Executioner sure you can get a lot of Rats, but they don't boost Remote Detonation like Hoplitrons and Deathstalkers do. Similarly, sure you can add a lot of Rats to protect Ebol, but in doing so they trigger Overload more than any other figure in the game. Therefore, Overload isn't optimized. That's another reason why I think the Varks are really good with Ebol. They can optimize both Overload and Neural Transmission.

The Marro Warriors are another interesting unit combined with Ebol. If they Water Clone one Warrior, their Point Value per Overload Opportunity Added lowers to 10pts. If they Water Clone 2-10 Warriors, they fall in between Marcu and the 10pt figures. If they went absolutely crazy and Water Clone'd 11 times, they would tie with Marcu, and anything more makes them the worst unit in the game for Ebol.

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I am not sure exactly what the Ebol builds have been tested...

FYI

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Armies played: Wins in Blue. Losses in Red.
(some armies may be 5pts under)

Spoiler Alert!

430pts
Heracles, 10th Regiment of Foot x2, Ebol vs. Fyorlag Spiders x5, Wyvern x2, Guilty McCreech

480pts
160pt Outsider Hero, Children of the Dark Star x4, Ebol vs. Ornak, Grimnak, Nerak, Blade Gruts x5, Isamu

500pts
Ebon Armor, Tagawa Samurai, Krav Maga Agents, Tarn Viking Warriors, Marcu Esenwein, Ebol vs. Goblin Cutters x5 (drop 1), Eltahale, Airborne Elite (technically an army not allowed by almost all tourney rules but it was a super close game with Eltahale 1-life and an AE remaining)
Bramcephys, B-11 Resistance Fighters, Deathreavers x2, Ebol vs. Arrow Gruts x4, Swog Riders x3, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Johnny Shotgun
Cathar Spearmen x3, Count Raymond, Van Nessing, Ebol vs. Zombies of Morindan x7, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)
Children of the Dark Star x7, Ebol vs. 10th Regiment of Foot x5, Gen. Simon Fraser, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)

1 mirror game with Varkaanan Swiftfangs, Varkaanan Greyspears, Varkaanan Darkclaws, Varkaanan Quickblades, Isamu, Ebol vs. 160pt Outsider Hero, Children of the Dark Star x4, Ebol (should’ve had Marcu in there as well, but not sure it would’ve made a difference as I rolled 60% skulls/35% shields vs. kd’s 42/25% respectively)

525pts
Mohican River Tribe x4, Brave Arrow, Himmelskralle, Bol, Ebol vs. Kurrok the Elementalist, Fire Elementals x9, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Isamu

550pts
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Fen Hydra, Tagawa Samurai, Krav Maga Agents, Marro Warriors, Ebol vs. Honor Guard of the Blasted Lands x7, Warden 816
Mok, Axegrinders of the Burning Forge x2, Beorn Boltcutter, Zetacron vs. Capuan Gladiators x3, Crixus, Spartacus, Guilty McCreech, Marcu Esenwein

600pts
Deathreavers x3, Major Q9, Fen Hydra, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV), Marcu Esenwein, Ebol vs. Knights of Weston x3, Sir Gilbert, Nilfheim, Krav Maga Agents

Is there a toolbox army you would suggest to playtest? What would you suggest running it against?

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Other concern for Ebol is that worse versions of this have kind of already been done and those figures get a little worse in a world where Ebol exists. Does he overshadow Omegacron as the Repulsor Sniper commander? Does he overshadow Command Couriers as Vydar hero commander?

Omegacron offers way more reliability and offense than Ebol does without turning the whole army into his own personal time bomb. Granted at an additional 100pts, with a clear sight restriction, and figures moving with Mobilization can't take advantage of road.

With the Command Courier being a Common Hero along with having Fleet Footed, they again have much more survivability than Ebol without all of the downside. They can also be drafted at 35pts for 1, 70pts for 2, 105pts for 3, etc. depending on how many you need for your army. Same as Omegacron however, they do have a much more limited trigger to who they can activate.

This part of Ebol can be nerfed though with a range restriction if entirely necessary. I'm not sold that it is however.

[vegietarian18]

As a stat person and a Heroscape person I have no clue what you are talking about with Point Value Per Overload to be honest. I think you're way overthinking that, it doesn't that much discourage you from playing Rats. The overload wounds change the number by 5%. Not that much.

As I see it, with Ebol you basically get one mulligan overload, since you have your X you can knock off for free. So in order for your opponent to meaningfully overload Ebol, they need to make you roll for overload on average 6 times a round? It's defensive figures like the Rats that probably will not be losing more than 6 figures a round.

Myrrdin is maybe a better fit with Ebol than Heirloom, since you can use him to boost out of Overloads pretty often... interesting.

I don't have a specific toolbox build in mind though. 3x Rats Ebol Raelin Syvarris Hydra is an easy build to come up with that I think is quite good. Syv Hydra and Rats can all make great situations for each other with OM flexing.

[flameslayer93]

Its a potent card. Potent enough to cause a lot of discussion. I'm not sure how I feel about the design, although I will admit that I don't play with a lot of the OM commander units as they don't excite me. Ebol doesn't excite me either for many of the same reasons.

[Sheep]

You are correct that at a 5 or lower with most attacks resolved at 1-2 wounds, there would have to be an average of 6 attacks per round that ended in a wound for Ebol to receive a wound a round.

Any life you add to your army is a chance for Overload. Squads have to all be killed individually. 12 rats can end up subtracting 24 from Overload rolls if they each take 2 wounds on their way out. This is different from Heroes like Bram where the max he can subtract is 9 from Overload rolls whether it be from 1 attack or 9 attacks. Nonetheless, perhaps 6 or 7 with the wound subtraction would be better.

Chris has constantly told me that Ebol need to be balanced outside of Children and ‘X’ OM armies. I agree with that.

Again, kinks like that can be worked out. Transmission, Overload, and points can all be tweaked/adjusted/restricted to better balance Ebol across his numerous armies.

I’ve just noticed that as worded, Ebol could take turns with figures even after he’s dead. This shouldn’t be the case. I will be adding “While you control Ebol...” to the start of Neural Transmission.

Oh, yeah, note that if Myrddin boosts Ebol out of Overload that you have to roll Overload for Myrddin's wounds then as well.

[robbdaman]

I think you're just going to have a tough sell for Ebol as a concept to get pushed all the way through the process simply because the basic mechanics is something that really drastically turns game play on it's ear. While I like the creativity that factor alone is going to probably get it kicked to the curb somewhere along the way. Whether it's overly powerful or could be balanced with by price is one thing. Rygarn isn't really something I think anyone would factor in the decision either since it's such a limited use.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by robbdaman

I think you're just going to have a tough sell for Ebol as a concept to get pushed all the way through the process simply because the basic mechanics is something that really drastically turns game play on it's ear. While I like the creativity that factor alone is going to probably get it kicked to the curb somewhere along the way. Whether it's overly powerful or could be balanced with by price is one thing. Rygarn isn't really something I think anyone would factor in the decision either since it's such a limited use.

On paper sure. But as has been stated numerous times, in certain armies there's only 1-2 OMs that you wouldn't activate without Ebol. In those armies, Rygarn can be of use.

Chris also mentioned in his post that whether Ebol is the one in control of the OMs or the actual figures, simply by reading the board you can predict with 80-90% accuracy or better which figures will be activating. This is kind of where vegie's toolbox army comes in, but even as an opponent I know that if I do X, my opponent will respond with X, etc.

Again, again, again. The second we would like to stop theoryscaping and start actually testing how "broken" Ebol is, I'm all game.

[quozl]

You could just reuse Master Manipulator from Red Skull.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by quozl

You could just reuse Master Manipulator from Red Skull.

It’s an interesting thought. There’s a bit of difference in theme between Neural Transmission and Master Manipulator though.