Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Maps & Scenarios
Maps & Scenarios Battlegrounds and scenarios

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #4429  
Old November 28th, 2011, 02:43 AM
Typhon2222's Avatar
Typhon2222 Typhon2222 is offline
now with morh frostrating pun-ishment
 
Join Date: October 21, 2010
Location: USA - IL - Carbondale
Posts: 4,738
Images: 184
Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death!
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
An undeveloped thought. I'm intrigued by Griffin's instructions for playing Heroscape online. It involves the map being used getting the HeroSkype treatment. If someone more technical than me could do that to maps under review, I'd like to give it a shot. Playing other judges, the designer or creator, or just anyone who wants to get involved would, I think, increase the number of perspectives I have on the map and let people get more directly involved with the judging process (in much the same way that the gaming groups of the judges are now).
Inspired by Filthy the Clown's generous rendition of my Stygian Rift map for online play, I've created my own version of it in HeroSkype format, Ollie.



I've also appended this HeroSkype version to my PDF build instructions for Stygian Rift, so people can download it all in one go: both the VirtualScape build instructions and this HeroSkype gridded bird's-eye map in one PDF package.

Last edited by Typhon2222; November 30th, 2011 at 04:21 PM. Reason: updated the map with the newly-revised version (replacing black grid lines with grey)
Reply With Quote
  #4430  
Old November 30th, 2011, 11:01 AM
1Mmirg's Avatar
1Mmirg 1Mmirg is offline
Adrian Monk
 
Join Date: November 9, 2006
Location: FL - Fort Lauderdale/Miami
Posts: 11,499
Images: 52
1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

FWIW--and to skew the results in another direction--I have only ever used BoV or BoV-nominated maps in tourneys.

Having played plenty of games that end up not feeling balanced because of a map (one that looked good, but hadn't been tested), I don't like the idea of putting out a map for an event that I think with unfairly affect the results of the tourney.

I do, though, use other maps at game nights and other events.

---

Nonetheless, the entire point of having a panel of BoV Judges is to ensure that many perspectives are brought to bear on every BoV issue and map.

I very happily supported ollie to be a judge, knowing his views on maps. I'm glad to have his perspective and look forward to seeing his influence on all of us and on the BoV process and procedures.
Reply With Quote
  #4431  
Old November 30th, 2011, 11:18 AM
nyys's Avatar
nyys nyys is offline
quoting myself - insanity beckons
 
Join Date: June 21, 2007
Location: MA - South Shore
Posts: 15,795
Images: 2
nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth nyys is a man of the cloth
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Oh you can say it, you just wanted another academic on the panel.

-insert signature here-

Last edited by nyys; December 1st, 2011 at 08:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4432  
Old November 30th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Freezie's Avatar
Freezie Freezie is offline
 
Join Date: June 11, 2010
Location: Lower Mainland-BC-Canada
Posts: 315
Freezie knows what's in an order marker Freezie knows what's in an order marker Freezie knows what's in an order marker
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I know I haven't posted a whole lot lately (real life is busy!) but I still follow threads like this one and I just wanted to put out my on the uncapped columns. I think they should stay out of the BoV for all the same reasons as everyone has said against them. It seems to me that uncapped pillars are well-received by the tournament scene without putting them in the BoV and that them not being in the BoV is not hurting their appearance in most tournaments.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me -Psalm 23:4
Reply With Quote
  #4433  
Old November 30th, 2011, 04:56 PM
nate the dawg's Avatar
nate the dawg nate the dawg is offline
 
Join Date: March 3, 2010
Location: USA - TX - Wichita Falls
Posts: 1,533
nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness nate the dawg wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freezie View Post
I know I haven't posted a whole lot lately (real life is busy!) but I still follow threads like this one and I just wanted to put out my on the uncapped columns. I think they should stay out of the BoV for all the same reasons as everyone has said against them. It seems to me that uncapped pillars are well-received by the tournament scene without putting them in the BoV and that them not being in the BoV is not hurting their appearance in most tournaments.
My only problem with this statement is that (due to the game's handful of ranged characters with Flying) not allowing uncapped castle wall sections would largely seem to keep FotA-inclusive maps out of the nominations.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't this pretty close to the reasoning behind not allowing the Marvel ruin? I know I've had matches in which Moltenclaw or a Marvel hero flies up to the top of a wall and just decimates any who try to get up the ladder.

WORST. PALADIN. EVER.

Overall Tourney Record: ....I don't even remember anymore!
Reply With Quote
  #4434  
Old November 30th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Eirikr's Avatar
Eirikr Eirikr is offline
the Teirible
 
Join Date: April 29, 2007
Location: * Canada - Ottawa, ON
Posts: 904
Images: 3
Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly. It is legal according to the RAW and if the resulting map has balance issues it won't make it so it should be self governing. Just because the powers that be don't see the possability of making a balanced map that includes the warehouse doesn't mean that it can't be done but banning it certainly does.

HeroScape is back Baby! Whoo Hoo!!!
Reply With Quote
  #4435  
Old November 30th, 2011, 11:01 PM
ollie's Avatar
ollie ollie is offline
Is a Quadradical
 
Join Date: March 19, 2007
Location: VT
Posts: 9,544
Images: 43
Blog Entries: 22
ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly. It is legal according to the RAW and if the resulting map has balance issues it won't make it so it should be self governing. Just because the powers that be don't see the possability of making a balanced map that includes the warehouse doesn't mean that it can't be done but banning it certainly does.
So are you saying that the BoV regulations are stopping you or anyone else building a map with the Marvel warehouse? Really? Or are you saying that "BoV map" is the same thing as "balanced map"? Or that the BoV judges are the-powers-that-be?

I'm confused about where exactly you're wrong here, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

(And thanks 1Mmirg, and NYYS you better watch out---I heard that Stephen Hawking and Umberto Eco are vying for your spot on the panel.)

Last edited by ollie; November 30th, 2011 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Halfway through my first official BoV testing game at the moment. :excited:
Reply With Quote
  #4436  
Old December 1st, 2011, 12:27 AM
Eirikr's Avatar
Eirikr Eirikr is offline
the Teirible
 
Join Date: April 29, 2007
Location: * Canada - Ottawa, ON
Posts: 904
Images: 3
Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby! Eirikr rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly. It is legal according to the RAW and if the resulting map has balance issues it won't make it so it should be self governing. Just because the powers that be don't see the possability of making a balanced map that includes the warehouse doesn't mean that it can't be done but banning it certainly does.
So are you saying that the BoV regulations are stopping you or anyone else building a map with the Marvel warehouse? Really?
A valid point and while your interpretation was not my intention it is certainly a reasonable way to take what I have said. So to be clear, no it does not prevent me or anyone else using the warehouse in a map but it does prevent anyone from submitting one for consideration (or at least having it considered) for the BOV. Not sure that my intention wasn't pretty obvious but there you have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Or are you saying that "BoV map" is the same thing as "balanced map"?
No... not sure what else to say here as I don't see exactly where this is coming from but no, that is not what I am saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Or that the BoV judges are the-powers-that-be?
This one's easy. Within the context of this discussion they certainly are. I'm not sure who else is responsible for or has the power to change the rules of the BoV. If I've got that wrong I'd be surprised but enriched for the enlightenment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I'm confused about where exactly you're wrong here, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
You seem to be fairly easily confused but hopefully I've been able to clear it up for you. I'd hate for you to be unsure as to where I've gotten it wrong. My criticism was meant in good faith and with respect to those who work so very hard to make the BoV my favourite place to read about maps and the map building/testing process. It certainly was not meant to demean or undermine those efforts and I don't think it required this kind of reactionary deffence but I am happy to role with what every you want to throw at me. Ultimately I just think that the quality of the BoV is in safe hands and is not likely to be undermined by the use of this one and only piece of official terrain and I'm not sure why it is or should be banned.

HeroScape is back Baby! Whoo Hoo!!!

Last edited by Eirikr; December 21st, 2011 at 12:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4437  
Old December 1st, 2011, 02:51 AM
Typhon2222's Avatar
Typhon2222 Typhon2222 is offline
now with morh frostrating pun-ishment
 
Join Date: October 21, 2010
Location: USA - IL - Carbondale
Posts: 4,738
Images: 184
Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death! Typhon2222 is hot lava death!
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
(And thanks 1Mmirg, and NYYS you better watch out---I heard that Stephen Hawking and Umberto Eco are vying for your spot on the panel.)
I would definitely vote for Umberto Eco. I suspect that Hawking would do a better job of testing maps; but Eco would write far more entertaining reviews.

EDIT: Not that either could replace nyys, of course. All musings about the merits of various academics and/or literati as potential BoV judges are offered solely in the abstract.

Last edited by Typhon2222; December 1st, 2011 at 03:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4438  
Old December 1st, 2011, 08:47 AM
Dignan's Avatar
Dignan Dignan is offline
BBQ-er of Beer Bathed Brats
 
Join Date: October 2, 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,897
Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death! Dignan is hot lava death!
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly. It is legal according to the RAW and if the resulting map has balance issues it won't make it so it should be self governing. Just because the powers that be don't see the possability of making a balanced map that includes the warehouse doesn't mean that it can't be done but banning it certainly does.
Your point is well taken. I can see the merit of allowing the ruin to be used in BoV maps and have them judged on a map by map basis. However, I can't see me ever voting yes for a map with the Marvel ruin. The nature of the piece is unbalanced for double blind tournament play. It creates a situation where a unit with flying can survive indefinitely against a melee army. Worse, if the flying unit has range, it can inflict infinite damage on melee figures with impunity.

Now if a map used terrain to allow figures to walk up to the upper level of the ruin somehow, this situation would be largely deflated. But at that point, you're likely committing a large amount of terrain just to use the ruin. It seems unlikely that this would be feasible for the types of maps we judge here. I can't say that I've seen a map that has employed such a solution.

If you feel that there is a map out there that defeats this problem, please bring it to our attention. It may very well change our perception and reason behind this rule.

Dignan's Maps - Dignan's Multiplayer Maps
Competitive Unit Congress
"It doesn't matter how you find the pot of gold, all that matters is that you beat the leprechauns".


Reply With Quote
  #4439  
Old December 1st, 2011, 09:26 AM
mac122's Avatar
mac122 mac122 is offline
Saving the world - one lonely Marro at a time
 
Join Date: October 12, 2009
Location: USA - IL - Edwardsville
Posts: 11,413
Images: 43
mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth mac122 is a man of the cloth
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly. It is legal according to the RAW and if the resulting map has balance issues it won't make it so it should be self governing. Just because the powers that be don't see the possability of making a balanced map that includes the warehouse doesn't mean that it can't be done but banning it certainly does.
Your point is well taken. I can see the merit of allowing the ruin to be used in BoV maps and have them judged on a map by map basis. However, I can't see me ever voting yes for a map with the Marvel ruin. The nature of the piece is unbalanced for double blind tournament play. It creates a situation where a unit with flying can survive indefinitely against a melee army. Worse, if the flying unit has range, it can inflict infinite damage on melee figures with impunity.

Now if a map used terrain to allow figures to walk up to the upper level of the ruin somehow, this situation would be largely deflated. But at that point, you're likely committing a large amount of terrain just to use the ruin. It seems unlikely that this would be feasible for the types of maps we judge here. I can't say that I've seen a map that has employed such a solution.

If you feel that there is a map out there that defeats this problem, please bring it to our attention. It may very well change our perception and reason behind this rule.
What about allowing the warehouse ruin as a LOS blocker without the upper floor? It can be removed from the wall piece without damage (or not inserted in the first place). With or without the breakable wall section, it could be very useful. While I'm here, another 2 cents, I believe the small amount of terrain in the Marvel set should qualify it as an expansion instead of a true Master Set like RotV or SotM. If the BoV would consider allowing the warehouse ruin without the upper floor and putting the Marvel set in the same category as Volcarren or Thaelenk, it would open up more possibilities for tournament quality maps using a set that is still readily available.


My Customs HoSS HoSS Sortable Index
Looking for the Codex?
My Trade List
Tourney Record: 2-11 I4031
Reply With Quote
  #4440  
Old December 1st, 2011, 10:30 AM
ollie's Avatar
ollie ollie is offline
Is a Quadradical
 
Join Date: March 19, 2007
Location: VT
Posts: 9,544
Images: 43
Blog Entries: 22
ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth ollie is a man of the cloth
Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikr View Post
I'm sure this has been said before but I think no allowing the Marvel warehouse is silly....
My criticism was meant in good faith and with respect to those who work so very hard to make the BoV my favourite place to read about maps and the map building/testing process. It certainly was not meant to demean...
Thanks for the clarification.

To address the wider point (and I think this goes wider than your specific criticisms Eirikr; this is not just a direct response to you) I think there is perhaps some confusion about what the BoV is for. Consider the two statements:
  • If a map is in the BoV then it is excellent.
  • If a map is excellent then it is in the BoV.
I see the job of the judges as, primarily, to make the first of those sentences true. The second can be rephrased as "If a map is not in the BoV then it is not excellent" (that's the contrapositive, logic fans ). I don't think that this is what the BoV judges should be trying particularly hard to make true. There are, and should be, plenty of excellent maps that are not in the BoV. There can be many reasons for this, including that they are excellent for a slightly different situation than double-blind tournament play with 400-600pt armies, that they bend the rules more than the BoV judges would like, that they use terrain in a way that falls outside the boV limitations, and that they simply have not been nominated.

As I've said before along with many others (most recently Dignan in his far-more-diplomatic-response-than-mine), the way to argue for a change in the BoV terrain limits is not to bring up hypothetical excellent maps that fall outside the guidelines, it's to bring up actual ones (note the plural) and show that we're out of step with what mapmakers are doing and tournament directors want to see from us. I'd love to see some excellent maps that use the Marvel wall piece.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Maps & Scenarios
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:50 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.