The Book of Black Canary (Justice League)

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I guess for me, it's just that the downsides totally outweigh the upsides? There's plenty of incoming synergy to draw her into the Champion web. We now have 6 JL Marker designs, Superboy II, and Supergirl II. (Not to mention the less thematic options like Sif and Allen.) She's going to want to be in a Champion army no matter what, just cause that class has suddenly become decently strong synergy-wise.

But leave the Champion synergy off, and building a Birds of Prey army around her, or even a JLA army that's not majority Champions is that much more valid, and that's a very good thing to me. Leave it on, I feel like I'm being punished for including non-Champions in my Justice League, which isn't really the point of the faction in my eyes.

Like I said, not going to pitch a fit over it, just feels like a very small step in the wrong direction to me. (And I honestly think you could still have her count destroyed Unique Heroes and have the power not push her towards cheap gimmicks. Raph isn't pushed outside of the Turtles faction cause of a +1 on a D20, y'know?) You have my Pre-Yea either way.

Fair. I do think there are plenty of non-JL armies she'll work in pretty well (Avengers, Guardians) as a general turn bonder, but you're probably right overall here.

That said, I'm not really super concerned about this design being viable in Birds of Prey armies, because I'm operating under the 30 versions theory. Heck, despite being a champion, without a JL marker specific power, I'm not even sure this will end up being the only JL Canary!

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm not even sure this will end up being a JL Canary!

Fixed it for you.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Arkham

And this would be the case of...not being rewarded. What classes are not being benefited by Black Canary III?

Vigilante, Archer, and Strategist would all be thematic allies that would not benefit from whatever Champion synergy is present, obviously pending wherever your Champion call out happened to land.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Vigilante, Archer, and Strategist would all be thematic allies that would not benefit from whatever Champion synergy is present, obviously pending wherever your Champion call out happened to land.

It's only being proposed for here:

SCREAM QUEEN
Instead of attacking, choose up to 3 spaces in a straight line from Black Canary. All enemy figures on or within 1 space of the chosen spaces are affected by Scream Queen. Roll the 20-sided die, adding 1 to your roll for each wounded Champion in your army. If you roll 14-18, the chosen figures receive 1 wound. If you roll 19 or higher, the chosen figures receive 2 wounds, and you may remove 1 unrevealed Order Marker at random from each of their Army Cards.

You may not be rewarded for including whatever class you like, but those figures are losing 0 benefit.

[MrNobody]

The difference for me is that the marker restrictions can be worked around through clever drafting. Heck, if you're only bringing one JL Marker design, Champion isn't more rewarded than any other of their choice classes. Batman III, Zatanna I, Constantine, and Green Arrow I works as a "Justice League build" even though there's only one Champion.

Black Canary just having a Champion callout is a harder line that pushes more towards Champion-only JL army building. It's just a slight D20 boost, hardly a big deal, but it does feel like a misstep to me to take the faction in that direction (direct Champion synergies), especially when we already have the Superman Family stuff doing that.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

The difference for me is that the marker restrictions can be worked around through clever drafting. Heck, if you're only bringing one JL Marker design, Champion isn't more rewarded than any other of their choice classes. Batman III, Zatanna I, Constantine, and Green Arrow I works as a "Justice League build" even though there's only one Champion.

Black Canary just having a Champion callout is a harder line that pushes more towards Champion-only JL army building. It's just a slight D20 boost, hardly a big deal, but it does feel like a misstep to me to take the faction in that direction (direct Champion synergies), especially when we already have the Superman Family stuff doing that.

Glad you brought it up. If this is such a big desire we have, why are there class restrictions on Supergirl II's Aggressive Assault?

AGGRESSIVE ASSAULT
If you win initiative, you may immediately reveal an "X" Order Marker on this card. While there is a revealed "X" Order Marker on this card, when a Kryptonian or Champion you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Supergirl attacks with a normal attack, if more shields than skulls are rolled, you may reroll all dice once. Aggressive Assault affects Supergirl.

[MrNobody]

I mean, I argued against that. But it's also primarily a Superman Family design, not a JL design.

[Lord Pyre]

Agreed that if I brought Canary, I definitely wouldn't want to draft non-Champions with her, JL synergies or not. Her power puts her into a Champion army. This isn't even a JL discussion as it is a champion one. There's overlap with JL sure, but she's not necessary a JL design as is, as she is a Champion synergy figure.

Unrelated, I'd like to see her in a test with Sentry, as a bonding turn with her and Sentry if there are wounds on your champions is going to be throwing a lot of unblockable damage (Assuming of course, if Sentry doesn't break down).

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I mean, I argued against that. But it's also primarily a Superman Family design, not a JL design.

This is supposed to be primarily a JL design, not a Birds of Prey design though.

And if that's the case, by your guys' own reasoning, I guess we still need a Supergirl that plays well with the Justice League. I'll add her to my list.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

she's not necessary a JL design as is, as she is a Champion synergy figure.

I disagree on the basis that all the big JL players will have a Champion version. Just as not every version of the F4 characters will be based around Adventurers, not every JL design needs to be completely open ended. If you want to play the JL, eventually there will be a Champion version of the core members over the years. So they are one in the same as far as I'm concerned, which is clearly the entire disagreement at hand. Some want JL to be an open synergy, while others want to allow for more focus from some of the designs.

From the very beginning, the whole reason we designed the JL the way we did, was to avoid open ended drafting/synergy like the Avengers have. We wanted you to be more encouraged to draft with thematic allies. At this point, most of the thematic allies will have a Champions version to play with. Just as you can't play Daredevil I with Cage, but you can play Daredevil II, or Thing I can be played well with Fantastic but Thing II can't... It's ok if we have some options with a slight lean towards the Champion versions of the characters.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Glad you brought it up. If this is such a big desire we have, why are there class restrictions on Supergirl II's Aggressive Assault?

Because, as Nobody pointed out, its a Superman Family design. Yes it was done trying to be sensitive to her League time, but she was a Family design first.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I mean, I argued against that. But it's also primarily a Superman Family design, not a JL design.

Admittedly, I know I do wish I'd opened it up to Legionnaires, but it might be a bit late for that.

Originally Posted by Arkham

This is supposed to be primarily a JL design, not a Birds of Prey design though.

And if that's the case, by your guys' own reasoning, I guess we still need a Supergirl that plays well with the Justice League. I'll add her to my list.

Supergirl II plays fine with the League. She just wasn't designed with the League in mind. Saying she can't fit in that niche invalidates what you've been saying about Black Canary I still playing fine with the League. You're more than welcome to make a League one if you really want, as the one made was made with sensitivity to the League, but not with that primarily in mind.

You're 100% right that this doesn't need to be a Birds of Prey version. Or an Ollie team up version. Archer, Vigilante, and Strategist are all thematic allies of Canary, that have been league members. Some don't feel that single class call out fits with the spirit of what the JL Leader type figures have gone for, which I tend to agree with. You disagree, vehemently, and you're the LD and thus allowed to, if not full on encouraged to, work to validate and encourage your vision. I will dip out now, as this has gone past the point of what I feel would be productive.

[Lord Pyre]

Yeah that's clearly the issue then. In your opinion Champion = JL, while others don't share that.

Is there a clean way to hash this out so we can move forward?