Thoughts on Competitive Unit Pricing

[Sarpedon]

Hello, Jexik

Perhaps I didn't understand correctly. Are you saying that Major Q9's value comes (mostly) from his survivability? If that were the case, no one would ever complain about him "running the table".

It is true that his survivability (usually when paired with ROTV Raelin) allows him to deal out the damage longer and that is a major reason for his cost, but it is his offensive ability which allows him to virtually transform himself into a ranged squad (thus decreasing his turn marker cost) and bypass most defenses (smoke powder, Thorian speed, etc.) that makes him feared and accused of being underpriced.

I didn't think I needed to explain it in such detail. If you still don't agree, then I have probably failed to articulate my activation cost idea effectively, although I did my best in the previous post. Sometimes it's best to agree to disagree.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Good thread, Jexik. I just want to add what many of you may intuitively already know: the true cost of a unit/squad is not its price, but its price PLUS the number of activations it will require to be effective. By "effective", I mean that it will compensate you for the investment in cost units and activation markers when you attack (Taelord), defend (Raelin), position/deploy your troops (Theracus) or even regenerate/heal (Marro Hive).

I'll go you one better and say that the true cost of a unit/squad is its price plus the number of activations it requires to be effective plus the start zone spaces it consumes. We look at price, but we should be looking at all three all the time. For instance, we might call the Marro Warriors a 50-2-4 unit: they cost 50 points, can often reach a glyph or attack an enemy on their second marker, and take up four start zone spaces. Raelin might be 80-1-1: she takes up one space and often starts affecting the game big-time after one marker.

The problem for designers and playtesters is that point totals can be adjusted very finely without a lot of constraints, but the other two "costs" are stubborn. Currently, there are only five settings for the start zone cost: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. You can also fiddle with activation costs to an extent... a marker on Dr. Doom is worth just a little more than 1, and a marker on Ulginesh is worth a lot more than 1, while a marker on Marcu is worth just a little less than 1. Bonding markers are worth double. But all these adjustments have difficulties-- with the exception of true bonding, they require complicated power text. Adjusting start zone cost runs into limits on the number of figures a package can hold, the size of the bases they can have, and how big they can be.

I would say the biggest power problems in Heroscape are the units with the worst start zone costs and to a certain extent the units with the worst order marker costs. Units with a start zone cost of 6 almost never even get into tournaments. And as Jexik and others have pointed out, many of the duds would still be duds at 40-50% of their point cost, simply because the activation cost would not get cut.

[Sarpedon]

Hello, rdhight

I agree that, as most tournaments are currently run, starting spaces are a severe limitation. However, that one is the easiest to resolve: just allow more starting spaces. Reassigning card and turn marker/activation costs would be a far more daunting task.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Sweetcurse

I know a group that plays with highly altered point costs based on a complex statistics chart that works primarily with the number of times a unit is drafted.

Well, that would be the way to do it. Treat it like a stock market, let the prices float, treat every draft as a buy while incrementally lowering the price of undrafted units, and eventually everything settles down to a stable value.

I'd love to see what point costs they use. I realize it's extremely unlikely anyone's going to use those point values for a tournament, but it would be interesting to see none the less.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Hello, Jexik

Perhaps I didn't understand correctly. Are you saying that Major Q9's value comes (mostly) from his survivability? If that were the case, no one would ever complain about him "running the table".

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

In September I lost a game in a tournament where I had 4 squads of Marro Stingers and Raelin facing off against a lone Q9 who already had a wound on him. I lost. Not because he killed my guys so quickly, but because I attacked Q9 for about 4-5 rounds and only managed to score two more wounds. I'd take 2 attacks of 4 and 1 attack of 3 every turn. I attempted Stinger Drain twice and rolled in the 6-8 range twice. His Q9 shot up at Raelin and the Stingers and eventually killed them, but it was his survivability, and his repeated ability to roll 2-4 shields when he needed it that won him that game. His offensive ability is average at best, flexible and efficient, but not powerful. He has enough defense to make playing against him with a mostly squad army an exercise in frustration or a very quick and unlucky deathwalkeresque defense roll.

So I guess it's more appropriate to say that he crawls the table. He makes the game slow, boring, and uneventful.

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

It is true that his survivability (usually when paired with Raelin) allows him to deal out the damage longer and that is a major reason for his cost, but it is his offensive ability which allows him to virtually transform himself into a ranged squad (thus decreasing his turn marker cost) and bypass most defenses (smoke powder, Thorian speed, etc.) that makes him feared and accused of being underpriced.

Yep, he's a lot worse without Raelin, but there are still some stories like the one I detailed above. I still hold that it's his aggravating defense that makes him frustrating. The only special defense really worth preventing is scatter. I think the whole 'must have a special attack' thing is overrated. Just look at spider_poison's army list.

Originally Posted by sarpedon

I didn't think I needed to explain it in such detail. If you still don't agree, then I have probably failed to articulate my activation cost idea effectively, although I did my best in the previous post. Sometimes it's best to agree to disagree.

I got the activation cost idea, and that'd certainly make him a terrible figure, but the same could be said for any other offensive figure, and I'm not sure how you'd expend two order markers to do one activation the way that turns function in Heroscape. You do know that it goes My 1, your 1, my 2, your 2, etc., right?

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Hello, rdhight

I agree that, as most tournaments are currently run, starting spaces are a severe limitation. However, that one is the easiest to resolve: just allow more starting spaces. Reassigning card and turn marker/activation costs would be a far more daunting task.

But increasing the size of the starting zone has other effects that are far worse than hopefully giving Deathstalkers their day in tournament court- they make Deathreavers, 4th Mass, and Glads/Blasts even better than they already are. And then of course there's the game length issue.


If you don't believe me about survivability being a huge factor in Heroscape, here's a quiz:

1. Why is RotV Raelin better than SotM Raelin?

2. Why are Deathreavers better than Blade Gruts?

3. Why are Redcoats better than Ashigaru?

4. Why are (Valiant) 4th Mass better than Redcoats?

5. Why are Knights of Weston better than Sacred Band? Roman Legionnaires?

6. Why does Major Q9 cost more points than Major Q10, yet he's still considered 'better?'

7. Why does Major Q10 cost more points than Kaemon Awa?

Granted, these are purposely leading questions, and you could bring up Charos and a number of other counter examples, but the point remains that keeping offensive ability relatively constant, it is defense that largely sets figures apart. Major Q9's offensive potential is worse than Marro Stingers, Nilfheim, and even 4th mass or redcoats from height, but it is high defense that sets him equal to and above even the best units around.

[Sarpedon]

Hello, Jexik

As you said, defense is important, but it (alone) is not what makes units tournament-worthy or feared. Now, granted, you said that offensive ability being equal, the unit with higher defense is more valuable, especially if it is ranged and has a special attack. Isn't that almost the same as saying that the most versatile units are best? Some units are specialists and these are usually drafted to beef up the defense of versatile A+ units that have relatively low card costs and very low activation costs to be super effective (ROTV Raelin for Major Q9).

* ROTV Raelin is better because she is only wanted to beef up defense. Spreading her cost between offense and defense (SOTM Raelin) makes her more versatile, true, but disproportionately increases her cost on the card and in activations, making her less effective overall for what is really wanted from her. Since there are better offensive options, she is rarely drafted: she attacks and defends, but does neither well.

* Deathreavers are "better" than Blade Gruts because they can secure and keep glyphs as well as run some interference to better beef up A+ units, not because they are intrinsically better. Deathreavers are not feared, just hated by some.

* The Redcoats alone are better than the Ashigaru alone because they have more defense (and thus cost 25% more). However, much like the Marro Hive, the Ashigaru are not really meant to be played alone. They are meant to be (best played as) part of an 8-unit activation that includes the Ashigaru Spearmen.

* The 4th Mass. alone are better than the Redcoats and 5 points cheaper. However, the price of the 4th Mass. includes a severe unit draft restriction (to get the defense bonus you must draft ONLY valiant units). That's a huge disadvantage.

* The Knights of Weston alone are better and far more expensive than the Romans or the Sacred Band. However, with 300 points, 6 squads of Romans or Sacred band can be drafted, but only 4 squads of Knights. The value is more than evened-out in numbers (admittedly, the current and purely arbitrary starting zone restriction of 24 spaces makes such equalization impractical, but it is there).

* Major Q9 is better than Major Q10 because of the versatility of the Queglix Gun for range and die attack allocation. This is especially useful against units like the Sentinels, Vipers and the Krav Maga. His order marker effectiveness is currently far greater against the units in the game than Major Q10's. For just 30 points more, one gets far better versatility. I concede, however, that his better defense, especially when boosted by glyphs and Raelin, make him a nearly bullet-proof tank. Nevertheless, it is his order marker effectiveness on attack that makes him a terror.

* Major Q10 is better than Kaemon Awa for the same reasons that Q9 is better than Q10 with the addition that he can ford narrow rivers.

In each of these cases, survivability is important, but versatility in attack and order marker effectiveness or super-specialization is what will get a unit drafted. If we look at the "best" tournament armies, what we usually find is one or two main centerpiece units and then a bunch of support units that enhance (intrinsically or by securing glyphs), heal, clear the way or obstruct the way to the main units. This is perhaps why units that fall into one of these two categories (main or support) are usually drafted to the exclusion of others and, if properly played, dominate tournaments.

This is not to say that (ranged) swarm armies cannot be effective, but even the Marro swarms, it can be argued, are simply a reverse enhancement of the centrepiece Hive.

Regarding your point about game length increase due to larger starting zones, it could be an issue for some. One solution could be fewer total games. Many of us would rather play five deep games in one day than seven or more "no-thinking-allowed" ones.

[Sweetcurse]

I'll ask him for the spreadsheet. I don't know that he'll want to share it but I'll ask. I keep telling him to post it here.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

I think that alot of times people forget that Q9 isn't that big of a deal when you're playing draft games. Q9's defense becomes less of a problem when you can easily pick a tank buster. Opponent drafts Q9? I draft Jotun. Not every game is a tournament, and I think Heroscape is designed more with drafting in mind than tournament play.

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

BTW, I believe--this is just me--that they may have purposely underpriced the Stingers, to allow new players access to a unit that could be really competitive with units that aren't currently as available.

They probably under priced them to encourage buying multiple SotM's.

[fomox]

This is the most interesting thread I've read in a while, so thanks, ParaGoomba, for resurrecting it.

I do think the 24-hex start zone is what causes some units to not be 'competitively priced'. 36-hexes, 500 points would create a different metagame than 24-hex, 500 points. (Hounds, Arrow Gruts, maybe even some light grok use.)

More interestingly, this thread is all pre-wave 9, so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say after some time with the new units.

[GreenLanturn]

Originally Posted by fomox

This is the most interesting thread I've read in a while, so thanks, ParaGoomba, for resurrecting it.

I do think the 24-hex start zone is what causes some units to not be 'competitively priced'. 36-hexes, 500 points would create a different metagame than 24-hex, 500 points. (Hounds, Arrow Gruts, maybe even some light grok use.)

More interestingly, this thread is all pre-wave 9, so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say after some time with the new units.

I agree on all points (including the resurrecting of a very good artical).

Honestly the Deathstalkers are one of my favorite squads, but as said before they take up too much space and cost too much. But doesn't that mean you fill your start zone and army total at around the same time? Sure, it isn't a perfect balance, but it is close and that is how I see them being cost what they are.

That said, I see most units costs as a way to prevent them from having to much support. I read long ago that if Taelord cost the same as Raelin he would be in every army (just like Raelin, and I know that is exaggerating but you get the point). If Q9 cost 100 points he could have tons of support units, likewise for the dragons, and a few others. Recently the question was asked "What if Jotun cost 175(ish) points instead of 225?" I say he would have more support figures to help him, like rats to tie up ranged threats, or more better squad killers so he can focus on heroes.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by fomox

More interestingly, this thread is all pre-wave 9, so I'm interested to see what everyone has to say after some time with the new units.

I still don't have much time with them yet (although I did proxy the dwarves once), my overall feelings about this wave are very positive with respect to the cards' prices. With the exception of TBR and Kumiko, I see most of this wave lying between the B and A- range on a scale like spider_poison's. Wave 9 is largely cool and powerful enough to play, yet I don't see too many of these squads becoming the new 'it' units. Although maybe all it will take is a few tourney wins with the Gladiators or Omnicrons to turn some heads?

I also like how a number of previously unused (Spartacus) or moderately used (Minions, Omnicron Snipers, Venoc Warlord) units will be showing up a bit more often. We'll also see what the 'Repulsor Effect' does to the use of Deathreavers and Vydar Soulborgs, and if we see an even further push towards melee use. More melee means that the Redcoats and 4th Mass get a lot closer to each other in power, and WoA suddenly become really nasty (and trons become zomgwtfbbqawesome).

[fomox]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I still don't have much time with them yet (although I did proxy the dwarves once), my overall feelings about this wave are very positive with respect to the cards' prices. With the exception of TBR and Kumiko, I see most of this wave lying between the B and A- range on a scale like spider_poison's. Wave 9 is largely cool and powerful enough to play, yet I don't see too many of these squads becoming the new 'it' units. Although maybe all it will take is a few tourney wins with the Gladiators or Omnicrons to turn some heads?

I also like how a number of previously unused (Spartacus) or moderately used (Minions, Omnicron Snipers, Venoc Warlord) units will be showing up a bit more often. We'll also see what the 'Repulsor Effect' does to the use of Deathreavers and Vydar Soulborgs, and if we see an even further push towards melee use. More melee means that the Redcoats and 4th Mass get a lot closer to each other in power, and WoA suddenly become really nasty (and trons become zomgwtfbbqawesome).

I have no time with wave 9 yet, so I clearly shouldn't be commenting yet. But I will anyway...

I have high hopes for the omnicrons; I liked the Taelord/Sniper/rat combo before, and hope the repulsors will help. If they don't, then I wonder if the soulborgs actually become stronger with this wave. Trons in particular, as they just wail on melee, but even Q9 & rats. Almost every wave 9 unit has some ability that seems particularly well suited to hurt Q9, but if they are swarmed by rats, they are all fodder for a slow, boring quiglix death.

Help us Omicrons Repulsors, you're our only hope...

I think wave 9 hurts the Vydar range pod, though. (Raelin,Q9,Q10,Laglor stuff)