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Old October 8th, 2008, 02:10 PM
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When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I donít know why but I was thinking about this the other day. Most will agree that itís generally best to kill cheerleaders (units that ďpump upĒ other units) first and then finish up with the (now) non-enhanced units. But under certain circumstances, it might be better the other way around.

The specific example I thought of was a squad (3) Arrow Gruts backed by 4 Swog Riders. In this case, Iíd probably attack the softer Gruts first to get them out of the way quickly and then fight the Swogs. Why? Because if you do it the other way around, itís going to take you longer to take out all the Swogs. In the meantime, youíre getting pelted by 3 (at least partially) pumped up Arrow Gruts for at least 2 turns while you hack through the Swogs. Seems to me it would be better to kill (or cripple) the Arrow Gruts quickly and Then fight the Swogs. If you fail to finish all the Swogs at this point at least theyíre not enhancing anything anymoreÖOn the flip side, if you attack the Swogs first and die in the attempt, you still have a full (partially) enhanced Arrow Grut Squad on the field. Anyway, Iím beating this into the ground.

Another example: Say youíre in range of Taelord as well as several Minions of Utgar and you have a squad killer. If I had to choose between taking out Taelord OR 2-3 Minions, Iíd go for the Minions.

In what other situations would you kill the pumpees before the pumper?

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Old October 8th, 2008, 02:20 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I would do the same, range the cheerleaders.
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Old October 8th, 2008, 02:24 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

In the Arrow Grut example, I would almost always attack the Swog Riders if they have other bonding options (like Krug or Mimring). If you kill Swogs, then they need to keep moving swogs up or have weaker attacks. If it's just Arrow Gruts and Swogs, then yeah, take out the Arrow Gruts that have spent time acquiring height advantage.

Depending on your opponent's Raelin placement, it can often be a good idea to ignore her for a moment, especially if you are using a strong attacking unit such as Stingers and the units she's protecting are weak, like Redcoats, and you've got height advantage against the Soldiers, but not Raelin, it might be worth taking some attacks of 4v4 to kill redcoats, instead of 3v4 or 3v3 against Raelin if she has a lot of lives left. That rambled, but I hope it made sense.

Also, if you've got Zelrig, everything goes out the window. Attack where you'll kill the most stuff.

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Old October 8th, 2008, 02:24 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I think I may still go for the Swogs (assuming there are more than one). Without the Swog the Arrow Gruts (though not useless) are easy to survive attacks against.


Taking out Taelord would be pretty enticing as well. His defense of three is much easier to get thru than the Minions six.

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Old October 9th, 2008, 11:52 AM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I'm almost leaning toward: If it's a defensive booster (Raelin, Kyntela) kill the cheerleader. If it's an offensive booster (Taelord, Khosumet), kill the boostees before they kill you!

The offensive boost doesn't make them any harder to kill, so as long as you can keep them off of your guys, the offensive boost doesn't do crap!

The defense boost is gonna make it hell to kill all their guys if you don't kill the booster first...

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Old October 9th, 2008, 12:09 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

Wow, that is definitely something to think about next time I play.... However, if can manage to drop the AE on height around the cheerleader, they can usually wipe the floor with any cheerleader in about two turns, no matter if the cheerleader is an attack booster or a defense booster.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 09:19 AM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

This is a very good point, thanks for the thread B.I.V., but I think its much more complicated than you make it sound. See, for example, Jexik's logic above.

If your enemy has multiple swog and Krug, kill swog so that bonding will be used to move up more swog. If your enemy only has swog do what you suggest and kill gruts. He's right, if you can force your enemy to waste time moving up swog its worth it, but otherwise you are.

Notice that bonding is a kind of Cheerleader like power. You do have to activate the given unit, but you don't actually have to want to do anything with them.

But ignoring Taelord? What if every single space around him is filled with an arrow grut? You will spend the rest of the game trying to clean up the arrow gruts, or you could just kill off one Taelord and half their attacking power. Which is better?

A very interesting point, but I don't think you can write any clear rule. Definitely something you need to think about.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 10:03 AM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I think the 'Cheerleader' is 99.999% the right person to whack. In the case of the Taelords, Keldas, and Raelins of the world it is ALWAYS better to take them out first and foremost. My reasoning is that if the opponent has 24 figures you decrease the projected power of 23 of them by the value of the boost, in Raelin's case you essentially deny 44 potential defense dice to an enemy. That's a BIG number. Same with Taelord, who I almost think is more important to kill than Raelin due to my 'preservation of forces first' theory that demands you to do all you can to preserve your forces aggressively where possible to retain more attacks per activation.
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Old October 10th, 2008, 10:38 AM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

You have 1 more post than I do superfly! NOOOOO!

Anyway, if there's a cheerleader, like raelin and you kill it, it's a big feat against your opponent, especially when she is strengthening multiple units, like 5-8 units. Sowgs as well. multiple squads of arrow gruts attacking you is a pain! as with the minions, go for taelord, he's an easier kill, and he costs more I think....too lazy to look now.....

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Old October 10th, 2008, 02:16 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I still think that the %age of the time you should attack Raelin is lower than 99%. In one game on Highways and Dieways, my opponent left his Major Q10 on low ground, and in Raelin's Aura; Q10 also had 3 order markers on him. With my Marro Stingers, I had a common attack glyph, and height on his Q10. For me to move my stingers into range of Raelin, I'd have to move them to be equal to Q10, and below Raelin.

I went right for Q10, rolling just 2 skulls each time, but he whiffed his first two defense rolls on 7 dice. Sure, I was lucky that he whiffed, but the same thing would have happened if I had a decent 4 or 5 skull roll at least once. He then lost turns and I charged the hill with Raelin on it, killing her, and then also beat up on his Laglor a bit.

Especially on a longer map, you should seriously consider taking a quality shot at something that's not a cheerleader. You might not kill a full health Raelin or Taelord in one, two, or even three turns, especially if you have to attack up or are putting your attacking pieces in a vulnerable position.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old October 10th, 2008, 03:37 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
This is a very good point, thanks for the thread B.I.V., but I think its much more complicated than you make it sound. See, for example, Jexik's logic above.

A very interesting point, but I don't think you can write any clear rule. Definitely something you need to think about.
I agree. It's very situational. I just see a lot of posts about how you should always take out suport units but I don't think people realize that it's not always the best choice. Yes, a majority of the time, it's a good idea to do so. But people should be open to other possibilities as in Jexik's example above.

You don't want to make the mistake of throwing your troops into a meatgrinder or a trap because you're so focused on taking out that Raelin on the hill over there...

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Old October 10th, 2008, 05:01 PM
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Re: When NOT to kill the Cheerleader first...

I agree that perhaps not 99% of the time is it appropriate, but I'd argue that it's darned close. Even if it takes you 5 order markers of attacks to remove the Raelin due to bad dice rolls it's worth it because of what I stated before: Force Projection. If you kill Raelin who is on a team of even 14 figures by killing her you are removing 26 defense dice from the enemy's potential defense. That is simply fact. If it's Taelord or SotM Raelin then we're talking 13 dice removed.

One must also consider the force projection of that Cheerleader - if it's Finn than you have to consider that it only works on an adjacent figure, not a sphere of influence like the Kyrie. You must also calculate the potential order markers needed to defeat that Cheerleader versus the dice you will be removing by killing them.

I still strongly believe that attacking a modified figure rather than, if possible, the modifier is a waste of attack dice in most cases. Granted, if you have an attack of opportunity on the way TO the cheerleader - God bless ya!

For me, at least, it's all about diminishing the enemy's force projection and taking out the highest value targets first.

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