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  #7705  
Old June 16th, 2022, 09:54 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Drow Assassin Resubmission: As I said when you withdrew the previous version, I’m glad you made the decision to remove the ability for the Assassin to trigger herself. I’m excited to see if this version hits the sweet spot where she can increase the viability of Deepwyrm armies and not be incredibly abusable on her own or in a small group of 2 or 3.

The new version of Drow Ambush doesn’t work as written. The action of revealing the X order marker makes it so that no figure has moved or attacked since the last order marker has been revealed; therefore, there is in fact no restriction on the Assassin triggering herself. You’d need to change the last phrase of the first sentence to “…since the last numbered order marker was revealed.”

I have to vote to review the Drow Assassin because of the wording of Drow Ambush. The vote reverses if my edit above is made, another change that fixes the issue is made, or if someone on the rules team tells me my interpretation is incorrect and that your wording is fine.

----------

Side note: Is “order marker” supposed to be capitalized within power text? It isn’t on Estivara and Van Nessing but is on Ornak and Heracles? What is the preferred formatting going forward?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Vydar is right about the Drow Ambush wording, but I don't expect submitters to be editors. As long as we understand what the intention is, I'm fine testing and leaving the final wording up to Editing. (And, as an Editor, I don't think it's hard to fix.) I'm happy with the other changes. to review the Drow Assassin.
The intention was the last "numbered" order marker. I'll just edit that into my submission.
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  #7706  
Old June 16th, 2022, 10:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
The intention was the last "numbered" order marker. I'll just edit that into my submission.
Per this edit, I'll change my vote.

to review the Drow Assassin.

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  #7707  
Old June 17th, 2022, 06:30 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Nordlung and Agrith-Naar have passed United Fanscape Review and move forward in the process.
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  #7708  
Old June 17th, 2022, 06:40 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Sweet Christmas
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  #7709  
Old June 18th, 2022, 11:12 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

to review Drow Assassin. I do think this design has been stretched by too much back-and-forth feedback over the years, but this is the most neutral implementation of it that has been submitted to SoV. Boosting and uniting the Drow as a faction is a fun idea. I'm glad that the double turn self-bonding is gone. I still do think the strongest Drow Assassin build is a pile of Drow Assassins and no one else in the faction, but that's okay. Maybe with Delta-priced Drow that's not true.

to review Green Wyrmling. I sympathize with Scytale's argument that the Green Wyrmlings in D&D are different. I think that no Poison Breath can be explained with a little more generous reading of the lore. Charos himself is kind of weird that he doesn't have breath, so I think it's reasonable that the Green Wyrmlings when summoned to Valhalla learned his fighting style. Or something like that. I think from a Heroscape perspective, the Green Wyrmling should have counter strike. It's a cool addition to the Wyrmling faction and Charos is a beloved figure.

One other note I want to bring up: for a group design like this, it really helps if you provide a "credits" section to credit people who worked on the design, rather than just saying "worked on by many people over the years". See the quoted credits on Clayton Pierce's first submission. I know it takes a little work, but it's really helpful for me to understand the context the design came in with. I was sincerely unaware that there was a large effort to redesign the Green Wyrmling by heroscaper2010/dok/others in that thread in 2020 that resulted in this current iteration. This was very different than the old killercactus submission so I started digging and found this out, but it took me some time. Asking judges to read 45 page threads that started in 2012 to get context for a design is not really reasonable, and truly it's just best practice to credit people who worked on things.

Spoiler Alert!
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  #7710  
Old June 18th, 2022, 11:24 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
This was very different than the old killercactus submission so I started digging and found this out, but it took me some time.
This is actually the 6th (!) version of the Green Wyrmling that has been submitted to SoV.
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  #7711  
Old June 18th, 2022, 11:46 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I would go so far as to say that designers deserve credit and the SoV might wish to refuse to consider nominations that don’t credit the people who put in the work. Kudos to vegie for calling it out.

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  #7712  
Old June 18th, 2022, 12:00 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

@vegietarian18

Seems like an easy fix, I'll scroll through and make that addition here over the next few days. Good to know for nominating other group customs in the future. Wasn't trying to be cryptic about anything, just was unaware that you'd like something like that. Will hook it up shortly.
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  #7713  
Old June 18th, 2022, 01:30 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Alrighty,

That is added to the end of the original post in a spoiler. The Credits I compiled and linked expressively reference the 2020 version. I went and compiled everything from the beginning of that thread if that is desired as well. Here is what I put on the end of the thread for credits:

Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by Shiftrex; June 18th, 2022 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Cleaned up spacing
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  #7714  
Old June 18th, 2022, 01:54 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Thanks, @Shiftrex .

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  #7715  
Old June 20th, 2022, 12:44 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

for Drow Assassin. No further comments from what's already been said (seen it a lot, I think this is an improvement on the past versions, etc.).

for Green Wyrmling. So when it comes to this baby Charos hype I just... do not care. The first wyrmlings were a fun pack, but when it comes to expanding that group, I have zero cares to give. That's not why I'm downvoting it, though. That's just my explanation for that when it comes to the main arguments I've seen like homeworlds, breaths, etc., I really don't care what that looks like. Counterstrike? Sure, if it's from Icaria. Poison breath would be necessary, I think, if it was from Eberron, but it's not. I do think maybe that mini is obviously a DnD dragon which gives me slight pause, but ultimately I'm not sure if I would care enough for that even.

The reason for the is because I think that Fledgling Counterstrike power on the card is bad. Not power-level-wise, just a bad power. You roll dice, then I roll dice, then I count some dice and roll more dice and... it's just too much for an attack roll interaction IMO, and really loses the Counterstrike theme, which I have more cares to give about. I'd rather just simplify it. (Actually I really think Fledgling Counterstrike is dumb as a concept, to be frank, but if you want a weaker counterstrike there are easier ways to do it.) Maybe just say if you roll 2 excess shields that's 1 wound, or if there are any excess shields it's 1 wound max.

Also, as a potential way to get those who disagree about breaths and planets on the same page, is there a way to just rename the power so it's functionally counterstrike but thematically poison breath? Two wyrmlings one stone, maybe? Just a quick idea, whether the actual text for the power changes or not.

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  #7716  
Old June 20th, 2022, 01:09 AM
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Votes

for Drow Assassin

No real comments beyond I think the most glaring issue was fixed.

for Green Wyrmling

I have zero issue with Green Wyrmling with counter strike as long as it's on Icaria (and I kinda don't care that it's the only wyrm on Icaria). I've said this before and I'll say it again.

But Bigga hit on the big reason why I hesitated to upvote this version. It's definitely a weaker counter strike but it lacks the simplicity of original counter strike and it is also far more complex a power than the other wyrmlings. I have definitely been waffling as to whether it's too much complexity or if I was just seeing things. Seeing that another judge also has the same issue I do is enough for me to say "yeah there's a better version of this power".

I look forward to a future Green Wyrmling design, but I can't in good conscience call this the best possible version.

~Dysole, calling it like she sees it
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