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  #7525  
Old February 7th, 2022, 03:26 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I see the theme "assassinate" but the mechanics make me wonder if it plays that way.
I had similar thoughts as to Assassinate's utility, but I suspect the power's +2 Attack boost will tempt players to use it for attacking most of the time. Won't really know without playtesting, though, and I would downvote the unit if the power tried to force the attack to occur.
Right. I don't doubt that it *can* work to trigger an "assassination" (though as I said I expect the victim more often will be some rando Roman Legionnaire or some other trash mob that's in the way), but I suspect that often its utility will be elsewhere. And I don't really count, in my own head canon, the killing of some front line squaddie to be an "assassination."

I do love the mini, and I am pleased that Leaf It has personally assured the supply. I also join in his wise advice that others should not follow this *particular* example.

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  #7526  
Old February 7th, 2022, 03:37 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
The SoV is proud to announce its first 2022 inductee, Olog by @The Long eared bat !





Here's the PDF for easy printing.

Excited to give this guy a spin..... just purchased a few off Troll and Toad (both for myself and to give away as tournament prizes)

H E R O S C A P E

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Joke's on you WotC! - 2022
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  #7527  
Old February 7th, 2022, 05:29 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I would like to resubmit my Drow Assassin:
I definitely like the idea of boosting the Drow. The once-per-round free activation feels like a post-hoc way to buff a bad faction, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, there's plenty of post-hoc buffs in VC. I do see the argument that mechanically you're unlike to actually use the Drow Assassin as an assassin, since you already have the anti-hero Deepwyrm Drow. Better to use the big attack of 6 to take an important squad figure to set up the Deepwyrm. But at the end of the day I don't really care, I think the figure looks like an assassin, and the design fits the figure. Maybe he changed strategies in Valhalla.

What kind of builds did you typically run the Drow Assassin in? I do share the concern on self-bonding. Was 2-4x Drow Assassin with no other Drow as a strike force tested?
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  #7528  
Old February 7th, 2022, 06:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Really happy to see Olog be inducted. Thank you to the SoV team for all the hard work you put in.

Long live heroscape
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  #7529  
Old February 7th, 2022, 09:40 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I wonder how often, during playtesting, "Drow Assassinate" was used for some purpose other than attacking a high value target. I imagine that power is very helpful for repositioning, grabbing glyphs, activating from the rear, or trying to eliminate some low-defense figure from the front, rather than assassinating at the rear.

I see the theme "assassinate" but the mechanics make me wonder if it plays that way.

The mini is holding a rapier, correct? Does it look like an assassin?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. Just trying to talk through the issues I'm seeing at first glance.

I like Shadow Shift (sharing Scy's preference for making it before *or* after, not both) and I like the mini. I'm just not in love with the assassin power or theme (or power name, as dysole said).
I don't think the sword is a rapier. I'm not really sure what kind of sword it is, but it's curved, and rapiers are straight. The stance the figure is in is definitely that of someone who is trying to be stealthy, so I think the Assassin theme fits pretty well.

In regards to Assassinate, you certainly can use it to do literally anything you would do on any other turn. The real defining feature is that +2 attack. You only get that once per round, so you almost always want to use it where it's going to be most impactful. That's usually going to be something that you really need a higher attack value to break through. But even if it isn't Major Q9, or Raelin, I would like to challenge the idea that only a hero like Raelin can be considered a high value target worthy of assassinating. Sometimes the real "hero" unit in a game isn't Raelin, but the Deathreaver that refuses to die, and keeps blocking your path. Sometimes if that one "hero" Deathreaver died 2 turns sooner, it would have changed the course of the game. This is especially true of bonding squads. If you could have killed that last Knight of Wesson a turn sooner, Sir Denrik would not have had a bonding turn to attack your Dragon. I don't like denying the option to use the +2 attack on common figures, when they can be the linchpin in a given situation, or an entire army. Just thinking about it logically, why would an assassin go easy on a squad figure, especially in a situation where they are preventing them from getting to a hero? Regardless, you usually want to use the 6 attack to hit something with more than 1 life, simply because it's better to deal more damage. Sure you'll use it on a squad figure if that's your only option, but if the opportunity presents itself, you almost always prefer to hit the bigger target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Am I reading/understanding this interaction correctly?

By my understanding, it is possible (after developing some Deepwyrm Drow or Chainfighters into position) to reveal a numbered OM on an Assassin, move 6 normally, Shadow Shift, then reveal the X with Drow Assassinate to take another turn with the same Assassin, move normally and Shift again, before attacking with 6? That's 22 spaces of movement, 10 of which effectively ignores terrain.

That might be something I have a problem with.
Yes, that is in fact a thing you can do and that does make me pause. I do wonder how easy that is to set up. Is it worth it for a single attack of 6? I don't know. Sometimes yeah, but it is doing 2-2.5 wounds against a hero of 3 depending on whether or not you can get height. If Drow Assassin self bonding wasn't tested, I'm probably changing my vote to a no.

~Dysole, suspecting that it might be fine but that's a big leap (pun kinda intended)
Yes. Theoretically, if you had your units in just the right places, you could activate Assassinate after taking an Assassin's turn, and Shadow Shift your way across the entire map, to try and get a cheeky kill. In 99% of situations where you could feasibly pull this off, you are already winning, which is why you were able to get 22 spaces away from where you started. Opportunities like this present themselves maybe once per game, if you're lucky.

I have heard stories of a certain competitor at Gencon that ran 18 Drow Chainfighters and made it to day 2 before being eliminated. That's amazing, and I wanted to make sure that the same was possible with the Assassin. I have tested this, and while it was fun (for me) the Chainfighters are definitely way more consistent. 2 defense just doesn't hold up, and even with an once per round attack of 6, the rest of the time you would be better off using a Chainfighter, and pulling key figures off of height with Chain Grab, not to mention surviving way more attacks with that defense of 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I definitely like the idea of boosting the Drow. The once-per-round free activation feels like a post-hoc way to buff a bad faction, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, there's plenty of post-hoc buffs in VC. I do see the argument that mechanically you're unlike to actually use the Drow Assassin as an assassin, since you already have the anti-hero Deepwyrm Drow. Better to use the big attack of 6 to take an important squad figure to set up the Deepwyrm. But at the end of the day I don't really care, I think the figure looks like an assassin, and the design fits the figure. Maybe he changed strategies in Valhalla.

What kind of builds did you typically run the Drow Assassin in? I do share the concern on self-bonding. Was 2-4x Drow Assassin with no other Drow as a strike force tested?
The Assassin can be splashed in just like a Chainfighter. Unlike the Chainfighter you loose one of their defining abilities unless you have another Drow figure in the army, though they are still a nice addition because of Assassinate. Pairing them with themselves, or Chainfighters is pretty good.

Here's a few Drow centric Builds at around the 500 point range:
Deepwyrm x5, Assassin x3, Chainfighter x3. 495 points.
Deepwyrm x4, Assassin x3, Chainfighter x2, Pelloth. 505 points.
Deepwyrm x4, Assassin x3, Chainfighter x3, Estivara. 510 points.
Assassin x6, Chainfighter x14. 500 points. (this is a meme, but it's fun, and better than you might expect. Still probably the weakest army in the list.)

You can exchange any number of Chainfighters with Assassins if you want to. Depending on the matchup, one will be better than the other. The biggest weakness of the Assassin is their 2 defense. They fall very easily, especially to Special attacks. Generally you want more Chainfighters if you are facing an army with 4 or more attack, or a lot of Special attacks. If you are facing 3 or lower base attack, you don't need the Chainfighters as much.
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  #7530  
Old February 7th, 2022, 09:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I appreciate the thoughtfulness behind this submission, and I like the power set.

to review (even with the power name change below)


Last edited by superfrog; February 8th, 2022 at 05:55 PM.
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  #7531  
Old February 8th, 2022, 10:36 AM
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Stay the Course

Leaf it's response is good and my vote remains as is.

~Dysole, steady hand
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  #7532  
Old February 8th, 2022, 04:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Am I reading/understanding this interaction correctly?

By my understanding, it is possible (after developing some Deepwyrm Drow or Chainfighters into position) to reveal a numbered OM on an Assassin, move 6 normally, Shadow Shift, then reveal the X with Drow Assassinate to take another turn with the same Assassin, move normally and Shift again, before attacking with 6? That's 22 spaces of movement, 10 of which effectively ignores terrain.

That might be something I have a problem with.
Yes, that is in fact a thing you can do and that does make me pause. I do wonder how easy that is to set up. Is it worth it for a single attack of 6? I don't know. Sometimes yeah, but it is doing 2-2.5 wounds against a hero of 3 depending on whether or not you can get height. If Drow Assassin self bonding wasn't tested, I'm probably changing my vote to a no.

~Dysole, suspecting that it might be fine but that's a big leap (pun kinda intended)
Yes. Theoretically, if you had your units in just the right places, you could activate Assassinate after taking an Assassin's turn, and Shadow Shift your way across the entire map, to try and get a cheeky kill. In 99% of situations where you could feasibly pull this off, you are already winning, which is why you were able to get 22 spaces away from where you started. Opportunities like this present themselves maybe once per game, if you're lucky.
I don't think this specific interaction will be problematic. Especially given that is is only semi-consistent in a Deepwyrm Army. I think it is unrestrained, but I can see the arguments for why it might be needed in order to give the Assassin a role outside the Drow faction. I have concerns, but I can't address them with only theoryscape.

YEA to review.

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  #7533  
Old February 8th, 2022, 05:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Even when I was submitting this design, I wasn't sure about the name "Drow Assassinate". I don't think that it's an unfitting name, but I also feel like it could be better. I really liked the idea of using the word "assassinate" for one of the abilities, because of how thematic that felt, but the more I think about it, the more I want to change it. I brought this up in the Utah Monthly discord server, and had a conversation with a few others, including my roommates, and I have decided to change the name of "Drow Assassinate" to "Drow Ambush". Nothing else about the power is changing. This should hopefully help the theming of the ability. I should have done this before submitting, but I was more confident in the name at the time of submission.

I have edited the submission post with this change.

EDIT: I want to give credit to BiggaBullfrog for being the first to suggest Ambush as an ability name to replace Assassinate.

Last edited by Leaf_It; February 8th, 2022 at 11:19 PM.
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  #7534  
Old February 8th, 2022, 05:21 PM
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No Changes

Staying the course with my vote. Like Drow Ambush a lot more than Drow Assassinate.

~Dysole, updatingly
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  #7535  
Old February 8th, 2022, 05:52 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Same, and agreed.

"I disagree. You're kind of right, yes, but Vydar and I are entirely right." -superfrog

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  #7536  
Old February 8th, 2022, 06:07 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Same
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