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  #4501  
Old March 30th, 2021, 12:09 AM
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Scytale Scytale is online now
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't like Hunter bonding or pseudo-bonding. Am I'm not the only one; Hunter bonding is going to be something of a tough sell. That's why I suggested movement bonding, which is a softer synergy.
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  #4502  
Old March 30th, 2021, 12:53 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

In D&D lore, apparently Wulflings are human. Why aren't these wulflings human?

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  #4503  
Old March 30th, 2021, 01:13 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
In D&D lore, apparently Wulflings are human. Why aren't these wulflings human?
I believe he did change them to human
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  #4504  
Old March 30th, 2021, 01:15 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm unaware of any Wulfings in D&D lore. There are Raghed Nomads, which is the name of the figure and they are a variant of human that is tribalistic and sequestered from others. Wulfing is a historical name that references tribes of the ice and snow in northern europe a long time ago.

I did have them set as human at one point but changed them for lore reasons and so they could be from Feylund. I haven't bothered changing any leftbox information since we got a Species and Planet that both are allowed together.

Definitely check the lore linked through the first post of my customs thread for their proposed identity and how I'm introducing them to the world. Though i would hope that most would have already seen that.

By the way, I think I'm about to a decision point on these mechanics because there is just too much to cram onto one card unfortunately and something has to give in terms of what is good and what sucks and what can fit a thematic card without being pure mechanics. As a designer I want to have a middleground of mechanics and theme, I want to feel good about playing the unit without having them be hot garbage and I don't think that I can have: psuedo 4 man, hero bonding AND no hitzones.

The conglomerate monster of a draft is found in the last post of my custom's thread, there is the culmination and sorting of all the ideas i've gotten from everyone and by wednesday it'll contain the draft that I'm going to try and test.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...9&postcount=59

Last edited by Shiftrex; March 30th, 2021 at 01:32 AM.
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  #4505  
Old March 30th, 2021, 01:32 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I thought that this draft was more inspired by the actual
Wulfings from Beowulf Wulfings from Beowulf
rather than D&D characters. If there's a D&D group called the Wulfing Hunters that these miniatures closely resemble, then that does beg the question of why they aren't those D&D guys.

More generally, there are lots of revisions being tossed around here. I have to confess that I'm not completely sure what direction you're aiming for with this design, @Shiftrex ; originally it seemed like the intention was to offer some kind of thematic Hunter synergy for units like Dünd and the Master of the Hunt. Any design that adds new synergy (especially any form of bonding) is going to attract more criticism than something that is standalone. That doesn't make the idea outright untenable, but it's worth noting that Hunter synergy is definitely an uphill battle, if that is core to your design goal here.

If it isn't, then I think that the design would be aided by focusing on what you view as the core. Pack Hunters / Coordinated Hunting and Lurking Hunter Strategic Hunter Bonding is largely getting lost in the weeds; if you want a 2-man squad that conditionally acts as a 4-man squad, then just do that (albeit I think it's worth noting that would also face scrutiny). Tacking on an engagement clause to Strategic Bonding feels like it's asking to be streamlined. This split focus was already present to a certain degree with the old draft being able to conditionally be a 4-man squad or bond with an unengaged Hunter, as I had indicated earlier, but it becomes especially apparent when those powers are separated and made more complicated.

I think that Scytale's dichotomy of simple powers exemplifies this quite well. Either draft is thematic, and the subtle changes between Isolated Prey and Hunting Pack hint at a theme. I thought that the submitted draft evoked hunting parties, but I'm not seeing that connection anymore with the change to Strategic Bonding. That makes me wonder why they can always move 4 unengaged figures but only attack with 2 unless they didn't follow their party leader (which can only be done when two of them are engaged). There's just too much going on there, and I think that it muddies a design that could otherwise very strongly evoke hunters.

It sounds from your posts that you want some kind of developing power to help them function better as a two-man squad--if that's the case, then some kind of movement synergy is plenty even if they don't get more than 2 attacks per turn--but really, the best route here is probably to take what you find most exciting about the design and focus on that. I think that the Wulfing could function very well as the hunting party following the big guys like Arktos and Himmelskralle into battle, but they could also go many different directions that each will appeal to different people more.

EDIT: I see that your most recent post now contains a similar sentiment to all of the focuses currently being too much, but I'll leave this post up anyway.
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  #4506  
Old March 30th, 2021, 01:36 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@Astroking112 Yes, they are more inspired by Wulfings from Beowulf. I don't know of any D&D Wulfings (wulflings in dnd? zero clue). I think I've done a lot of digging to find out what was liked and what was not liked, my post above is edited with some of my thoughts on it and the direction that I think I'm going to be traversing. Complicated powers tend to get worse and worse with the more ground that is tread so I made a cut, I think I'll stick with it for testing and make minor adjustments as needed.

I am staying away from any attack enhancements based on isolation because I do want to see them with Hunter Heroes like Arktos, that IS thematic for me.

EDIT: To respond to your edit thanks buddy, as always the time is appreciated as is the time that I spend talking to anyone which has been great. I don't get to chat with most of the people I have been talking with lately and that in itself is wonderful, I like everyone that is in this community.
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  #4507  
Old March 30th, 2021, 05:49 AM
Tai-Pan Tai-Pan is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop




I have not been in here for a while, but I recently started playing more HeroScape and working on customs. I think I may have something for the SoV.

Nenet is Khosumet's *ahem* female dog companion. And she is a female dog companion.

I really like seeing hordes of darkness roll over the table, but I feel like they can be slightly underwhelming. And I had a wolf miniature I did not really know what to do with. So Nenet was born, an Egyptian bringer of darkness.

As a Wolf she has bonding with the Aquilla Wolf Packs and as a Darklord she works with the Wolves of Badru. At 90 points, she is expensive, but without bonding I could not get her to work (the boost was not worth the order marker for her) and with bonding she is pretty potent.

A couple of army suggestions (for brainstorming or real play):

Nenet 90
2x Wolves of Badru 160
4x Zombies of Morindan 240
Isamu 10
500 pts

Nenet 90
2x Wolves of Badru 160
Phantom Knights x3 210
460 pts + 40 pts filler


Anyway, I wanted to see if the Workshop could help work out the kinks. I am seriously considering changing the boost to only affect Utgar or Utgar and Valkrill (although I would miss the boost for Vydar undead and Aquilla undead customs of mine), but I am concerned about what Nenet would do in an Aquilla Wolf build.

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  #4508  
Old March 30th, 2021, 08:36 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@Shiftrex , I love real historical units from Earth. Why not?

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  #4509  
Old March 30th, 2021, 10:08 AM
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Scytale Scytale is online now
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Nenet seems ridiculously good. A no-range attack boost for a large number of figures is nuts, not to mention the move boost. While it is held back by the need to give Nenet a turn, in a Wolves of Badru army that turn comes for free. Heck, you could just pair Nenet with a set of Wolves to have a strong first turn with her. She's like a half-price no-range Taelord for limited armies.

On top of that, her stats are rather good for a 90-point Hero. Life is a little low, so I don't think it's unreasonable, but her stats are good for the price. That's without considering the super strong power.

If nothing else, I think she makes Khosumet obsolete. Khosumet can still help Anubians specifically, but Summon the Night is vastly better than Khosumet's attack enhancement, and she has much better stats for only 15 points more.
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  #4510  
Old March 30th, 2021, 10:55 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of Nenet. First, I doubt this is intentional, but its worth pointing out that the current wording of Summon the Night affects Nenet herself, and more problematically, stacks with each turn she takes up to a max of +3 move and attack!

However, assuming that the bonus is not intended to stack or affect herself, I still have some concerns. I agree that bonding with Varkaanan is worrying; I've played enough Greyspears to know that they really don't need any more ways to boost their attack, especially one as easy as this

However, I also don't like what she brings to Badru builds because of the way she would make them less interesting to play. Currently, even though they're underpowered, the Badru face a nice tension each turn deciding whether or not to use their potentially powerful Pounce SA. The two primary reasons that a player would choose to use Pounce are 1: when there's a priority target that's unable to be engaged using the Badru's normal move, and 2: when there's a priority target that's unlikely to be killed by the Badru's normal attack.

Increasing the Badru's normal move and attack makes both of these scenarios less likely to occur, tipping the balance of tension to the point where I think using Pounce would rarely be the best choice.

Thanks for designing with the greater community in mind; as a Badru fan I'm always excited to see more Darklord options and Wolf synergy, but I don't think this is the best direction for such a design.
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  #4511  
Old March 30th, 2021, 12:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think that Nenet would function on a mechanical level better if we can:

1. Identify what her actual role is in scape and why she should thematically have that, helping a lot of the hoards of darkness is interesting but I'm curious as to why she helps so much more than just wolves.

2. Once we are sure what units she should assist/have motivation to be played with then that can help shape mechanics. For instance if she "just" played with Wolves of Badru then you could focus on what their weaknesses are and what can be done to help them (wolves don't seem to have a problem with attack dice to be honest).

I think if she had more of a "I help these people" identity or more of a "I assist Khosomet by adding this to his army" then it could be really fun. Excited to see where you take that custom!
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  #4512  
Old March 30th, 2021, 12:52 PM
Tai-Pan Tai-Pan is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hmm. Maybe this is a case of the end product makes no sense, even though every step in the development did

I tried her out originally without Darklord bonding and only with Undead. Giving up Order Marker 1 wasn't worth it for the boost, even a universal move and attack boost. I felt like in the category Undead, the extra attack was either irrelevant (due to special attacks, eg Thralls), didnt make a huge difference (already sufficiently high attack eg Aquilla Wolves) or really needed (Zombies, Shades, etc.)

Anyways, I would pull her out of the workshop. Thanks anyways!

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