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  #217  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:07 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
That, or by doing her job. Or by making sure it gets done by somebody else in a manner that satisfies the judge.
Thanks for the clarity. So she pretty much only has herself to blame for being put into custody.

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  #218  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:09 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Yes, precisely. If there is one thing I wish people reading this thread would understand, if they are really trying to understand what's happening here, it's the passage I quoted from Wikipedia about the Rule of Law. Once you really understand that, then you can see how ridiculous this situation is.

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  #219  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:17 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
That's not how I read the article, Hahma. As I understand it, the judge implied he might "cure" the contempt, or let her out of jail, if she authorized her deputies to issue certificates. She declined, though all the deputies except for her son said they would do so.

It's all very stupid. I am only following this story now because it's also absurd, and therefore entertaining. Culturally, it offers nothing, and legally, it offers nothing. Her opinion is of utterly no interest to me, and the only reason (as I said above) why I entertain myself by watching her turn on the spit of public humiliation is that, when she was confronted with her wrongness, she doubled down on it.

Let's take a moment to review this bedrock principle of modern society:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Wikipedia
The rule of law is the legal principle that law should govern a nation, as opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions of individual government officials. It primarily refers to the influence and authority of law within society, particularly as a constraint upon behavior, including behavior of government officials.
LINK

I know which article you are speaking about DS, but I was referencing (though there's 6 not 5 like I had thought) another article that said:

"The judge had told all six of the clerk's deputies, including her son, Nathan Davis, that they are free to issue licenses to all applicants while Davis is held in contempt, but would also face fines or jail if they fail to comply. After meeting with their lawyers, five of the six deputies agreed to issue the licenses. Nathan Davis was the lone holdout."




Some people are making this very political and her lawyer said;

"Today is the first time in history, an American citizen has been incarcerated for having the belief of conscience that marriage is a union of one man and one woman, and she's been ordered to stay there until she's willing to changer her conscience about what that belief is. This is unprecedented in American law."


Would this lawyer, Mike Huckabee and Rand Paul have the same opinions if the roles were reversed and the city clerk had moral objections to giving marriage licenses to Christians? I'm thinking they would be railing against the clerk that isn't doing their job.

And I agree in regards to the Rule of Law reference.

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  #220  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:24 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

That's some b.s. lawyer talk right there for sure. She's not being asked to change her conscience, just to do her job, or to take appropriate steps to allow someone else to do it for her.

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  #221  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:31 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
That's some b.s. lawyer talk right there for sure. She's not being asked to change her conscience, just to do her job, or to take appropriate steps to allow someone else to do it for her.
Yeah, you know those lawyers

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  #222  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 07:50 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Oh, I hadn't seen that. You are right. The lawyer is, of course, wrong. People, pleading on behalf of their consciences, have gone to jail for years. It's not new. Some of them were brave and right, some stupid and wrong. She is in the latter category.

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  #223  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:25 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Oh, I hadn't seen that. You are right. The lawyer is, of course, wrong. People, pleading on behalf of their consciences, have gone to jail for years. It's not new. Some of them were brave and right, some stupid and wrong. She is in the latter category.
To be fair, I doubt it's a deeply held believe on behalf of the lawyer. I imagine they're mostly trying to make an emotional plea that will gain public sympathy in order to put pressure on the judge at hand. I think they're strategically wrong, if that makes sense.

i.e. a lawyer being a lawyer.

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  #224  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:34 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I'm not sure this is as cut and dried as everyone thinks it is. As Davis stopped issuing marriage licenses to any couple (gay or straight) I don't see the discrimination here. With no discrimination, I'm not sure how the federal government has an interest in the job performance of a Kentucky county employee. It seem that as all applicants for marriage licenses are equally inconvenienced, there are three legitimate solutions. One, vote her out in the next election. Two, impeach her. Three, bring a mandamus action in state court to compel her to do her job. If a state court orders her to perform her job and she refuses to do so, she could then be held in contempt. I don't see the federal aspect here.
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  #225  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:41 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Originally Posted by Dragon Ruler View Post
I'm not sure this is as cut and dried as everyone thinks it is. As Davis stopped issuing marriage licenses to any couple (gay or straight) I don't see the discrimination here. With no discrimination, I'm not sure how the federal government has an interest in the job performance of a Kentucky county employee. It seem that as all applicants for marriage licenses are equally inconvenienced, there are three legitimate solutions. One, vote her out in the next election. Two, impeach her. Three, bring a mandamus action in state court to compel her to do her job. If a state court orders her to perform her job and she refuses to do so, she could then be held in contempt. I don't see the federal aspect here.
This sounds like an argument over jurisdiction rather than guilt or innocence.

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  #226  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:48 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ruler View Post
I'm not sure this is as cut and dried as everyone thinks it is. As Davis stopped issuing marriage licenses to any couple (gay or straight) I don't see the discrimination here. With no discrimination, I'm not sure how the federal government has an interest in the job performance of a Kentucky county employee. It seem that as all applicants for marriage licenses are equally inconvenienced, there are three legitimate solutions. One, vote her out in the next election. Two, impeach her. Three, bring a mandamus action in state court to compel her to do her job. If a state court orders her to perform her job and she refuses to do so, she could then be held in contempt. I don't see the federal aspect here.
This sounds like an argument over jurisdiction rather than guilt or innocence.
It is
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  #227  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:49 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Feels a bit beside the point.

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  #228  
Old September 3rd, 2015, 08:59 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

It is not the clerk's place to set policy. Whether it is discrimination or not is completely irrelevant. It is not given to her to make that decision to withhold marriage licenses from anyone, nor is it given to her to disregard a court order.

It is a battle over jurisdiction, as you say. She has far, far overreached her own, and now she is getting a civics lesson.

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