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  #25  
Old August 24th, 2009, 11:22 AM
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Re: Exhaustive Revamp of Heroscape Official Units

I am fine with most of the original versions of the units you have tweaked but I am looking forward to trying your version of others (esp. the Tarn Vikings).

You have taken quite a task for yourself. I appreciate your attitude towards those who look less favorably on what you are doing. I understand where they are coming from, but also, this is in the customs forum. That is what this forum is here for- making units according to our styles and preferences.

Kudos for the time and effort you have put into this even if I don't see eye-to-eye with you on all of the tweaks.
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  #26  
Old August 25th, 2009, 02:18 PM
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Re: Exhaustive Revamp of Heroscape Official Units

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toad Rocket View Post
Pretty interesting revamps. I can see why you did some of them trying to get balance out some ideas. That must of taken along time to do.

Just wondering at your home games. Do you play with the option of doing your version of the card or the orginal version? Or is it pretty much you need to take the new version? I suppose the later makes more sense, just wondering.

I think the best thing is making those less used figures more usable. Kudos for the effort and time to do all that.
Hi and thanks for your comments. To answer you question, we play almost exclusively with the customized units with a few exceptions. Off the top of my head, we allow the Tarn Vikings, Izumi Samurai, and Zettian Guards to be played as their original unique squad versions, respectively, but this rarely happens. As you surmised, we try to stick with the new system in its entirety. New checks and balances were put in place and units coming from outside the system easily upset those checks and balances.
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  #27  
Old August 25th, 2009, 02:29 PM
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Re: Balanced Scape

While the title of the thread was "Exhaustive Revamp..." I was happy to just ignore this as unnecessary but satisfying (presumably) to you and others. Now that it is "Balanced Scape" I want to register disagreement. We already have balanced 'scape. For the reasons Aldin gives I suspect that this is significantly less balanced than the carefully playtested (and fieldtested) 'scape that we all know and love.
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  #28  
Old August 25th, 2009, 02:30 PM
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Re: Balanced Scape

Interesting. You've put a lot of work into this. Some of the changes I like, but others have me completely baffled.


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  #29  
Old August 25th, 2009, 02:50 PM
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Re: Balanced Scape

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Interesting. You've put a lot of work into this. Some of the changes I like, but others have me completely baffled.
That's understandable. I present these only as the set of units that my playgroup prefers to use and to encourage any other Scapers who feel that many of the units are out of balance to not be afraid to try something else if it enhances their enjoyment of the game.

Most of the units were changed to achieve the best game balance possible, but a few were changed simply because my playgroup thought the unit could have more sensible game-play mechanics or could make an important impact on the metagame.

If my goal was to present these as the set of units that HSers at large could/should/would use instead of the officials (which I am not at all), I would probably not have taken as much liberty with many of the changes.

Some good examples of units that were nerfed purely for the sake of balance would be Raelin, the Deathreavers, 4th Mass (and many others). And some that were improved for the sake of balance would be Dund, WoA, Armocs, Denrick, Gorillanators, SBN, etc.

Some examples of units changed to influence the metagame would be Spartacus/Capuans and the MacDirks.

There is also a small handful of units that were significantly changed and now only loosely resemble their former selves - these I would consider "custom" in the truest sense of the word: Kee-Mo-Ga (Kee-Mo-Shi), Tul-Bak-Ra, Moriko, Shiori, Hamamoto Taro, and perhaps a few others.

I suspect that most changes you would agree with fall into the first category along with Raelin, Deathreavers, etc., and that most of the ones that baffle you fall into the last category with Kee-Mo-Ga, TBR, Moriko et al.

Last edited by rouby44; August 25th, 2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Necro calling attention to my mistakes :P
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  #30  
Old August 25th, 2009, 03:01 PM
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Re: Balanced Scape

Quote:
Originally Posted by rouby44 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Interesting. You've put a lot of work into this. Some of the changes I like, but others have me completely baffled.
That's understandable. I present these only as the set of units that my playgroup prefers to use and to encourage any other Scapers who feel that many of the units are out of balance to not be afraid to try something else if it enhances their enjoyment of the game.
Completely understandable. And if you've managed to create something that is truly balanced and works for your game group, I applaud you.

Quote:
Some good examples of units that were nerfed purely for the sake of balance would be Raelin, the Deathreavers, 4th Mass, Gorillanators (and many others). And some that were improved for the sake of balance would be Dund, WoA, Armocs, Denrick, SBN, etc.
Wait, what? (I think you meant to put them in the second category. )

Quote:
I suspect that most changes you would agree with fall into the first category along with Raelin, Deathreavers, etc., and that most of the ones that baffle you fall into the last category with Kee-Mo-Ga, TBR, Moriko et al.
And you'd be pretty much right on that. I'm sure there are a number of 'scapers who have played with the idea of changing cards "for the better" (in their opinion). I have a list of adjusted point costs (and ONLY point costs) based on the Power Rankings, but I doubt I'll ever get serious use out of it.

Carry on.


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  #31  
Old August 25th, 2009, 03:09 PM
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Re: Balanced Scape

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
While the title of the thread was "Exhaustive Revamp..." I was happy to just ignore this as unnecessary but satisfying (presumably) to you and others. Now that it is "Balanced Scape" I want to register disagreement. We already have balanced 'scape. For the reasons Aldin gives I suspect that this is significantly less balanced than the carefully playtested (and fieldtested) 'scape that we all know and love.
Point taken - I see that calling it "Balanced Scape" is a bit presumptuous (and I will edit the title shortly), but I also believe you would be surprised how balanced this system is compared to the official one.

Granted, there will be minor imbalances introduced through changing or adding new units, which I believe is inherent in creating any unit for this game, no matter how much play-testing occurs.

But if you take the official units that are exceptionally strong compared to the others (Raelin, Q9, Mass, Stingers, Rats, etc.) and bring them down to a fair level and simultaneously take units that are exceptionally weak and bring them up (WoA, EI, Dupuis, Templar, Groks, Roman Archers, etc.), you add an unestimable amount of balance to the game that far outweighs any of the minor imbalances that were introduced.

Also, I believe the creators of HS have done an outstanding job at unit creation by and large. Most of the units are balanced well and we have yet to see any evidence of power creep, which is commendable in and of itself.

But it is still far from perfect. No one in their right mind can say that Raelin 1.0 is fairly priced at 80 points or the Deathreavers at 40 or that Khosumet is balanced having 3 life. No one can say that it's a well-designed game mechanic for a 13.33-point Repulsor to be able to destroy a 140-point Deathwalker with a 40% D20 roll.

One thing that I feel allows me to create a more balanced scape is that I have the advantage of hindsight. I can take the entire collection of units and balance them against eachother. The creators of the game obviously didn't have every unit up till now sketched out and so they couldn't forsee all the interplay between them, how they would influence the metagame, etc, but I do have that advantage.
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  #32  
Old August 25th, 2009, 04:20 PM
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Re: Official Units Revisited

One of the Ideas that I really like is how you did the 'comanding' units like Kato, Hive, Spart.

Having their point cost fluctuate based on how many supportive units they have with them is a very clever mechanic. This way I would actually consider bringing Spartacus or Kato with just one or two supporting units instead of feeling compelled to use all of their supporting cast to make them more worth their points. That idea opens alot more army options which is a good thing.

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  #33  
Old August 27th, 2009, 12:09 PM
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Re: Official Units Revisited

I haven't gotten to use the Tarn Vikings as a common squad yet but I just realized something that makes that tweak even better for me as a customs creator.

Since they are only a squad of three that gives me extra figs to make Viking heroes out of to increase bonding options. I am liking them more and more.

Also, the more I review the tweaks you have made, the more I am liking some of the ones I didn't necessarily see the reason behind before. I think my gaming group would probably be open to playing these.
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  #34  
Old August 28th, 2009, 12:33 AM
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Re: Official Units Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamaclown View Post
I haven't gotten to use the Tarn Vikings as a common squad yet but I just realized something that makes that tweak even better for me as a customs creator.

Since they are only a squad of three that gives me extra figs to make Viking heroes out of to increase bonding options. I am liking them more and more.

Also, the more I review the tweaks you have made, the more I am liking some of the ones I didn't necessarily see the reason behind before. I think my gaming group would probably be open to playing these.
I play-tested them as a squad of four a couple times, but First Assault proved too powerful for them to cost 65 points. I wanted to keep them relatively cheap though, so I dropped a figure instead. They tend to play more like sharks than bread n' butter like the Armocs, for instance. They can definitely dish out the damage if time your order markers right and get that first assault.

Last edited by rouby44; August 28th, 2009 at 12:39 AM.
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  #35  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:52 AM
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Re: Official Units Revisited

One thing, though, that sort of bothers me a little... and while I agree with a lot of your small modifications (say an extra life here or an extra life there), the thing that stands out to me is that, quite frankly, if all the units do become "balanced" what is there at the end of the day to turn things from being a dice fest? Quite frankly, it seems to me that a lot of the fun/challenge of HeroScape comes from before the game.

Part of the challenge is creating a cohesive competitive army to handle a lot of the prevalent strategies... expensive unique squads, squad attacks, big heroes, big heroes that crunch squads, bonding, etc.; sure, ideally you want it to be that you can USE every unit, but you don't want to nerf everything to the point that an intelligent, skilled gamer can't set himself up to not just throw things over to the luck of the dice. And if all the units are perfectly balanced, you basically set up your figures and let the dice do all of the work.

At least with a somewhat unbalanced game you can become an informed player and create a strong, cohesive army with a definite strategy that can give you a greater chance to win.

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  #36  
Old November 5th, 2009, 09:09 AM
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Re: Official Units Revisited

My only issue with these is that you completely reworked several of the units. They no longer even have the same flavor.

I'm all in favor of house ruling some characters to be more viable but to completely rewrite them essentially makes them a completely different figure, not just an improved one.

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