The Book of Bud and Lou

[japes]

yea

[Tornado]

Yea

[Ronin]

yea

[Arkham]

This passes unless someone holds/nays it in the next 24 hours. Seeing as the CRB aren't at all concerned and this design has sat for 2 weeks, I think we're good.

[Arkham]

C3G INITIAL PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Bud & Lou

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Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Bud & Lou(70), Harley I(130), Captain America(240) (440)
vs.
Bug(200), Nebula(240) (440)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:


Harley's Babies:
R1T2: move.
R1T3: engage Bug.

Pack Tactics:
R1T3: subtract 1 shield from Bug's defense roll defending against Harley's SBSA.

Notes:
R1T3: Bug puts 1 wound on Cap.
R1T3: Harley puts 2 wounds on Nebula, 3 on herself, and 3 on Bug(1 is due to Pack Tactics).
R1: Nebula heals 1 wound.
R2T1: Bug kills Bud.
R2T2: Bug kills Lou.
R2T3: Harley kills Bug.
R2: Nebula heals 1 wound.
R3T1: Cap puts 2 wounds on Nebula.
R3T2: Cap puts 3 wounds on Nebula.
R3T3: Nebula puts 1 wound on Cap.
R3: Nebula heals 1 wound.
R4T1: Cap kills Nebula.


Harley Quinn with 3/4 wounds, Cap with 2/5 wounds.

Pretty close match that felt like it could have gone either way. Bug's team won initiative most of the match, but Harley's team had the better attack rolls. Bud & Lou only amounted in 1 wound being caused thanks to Pack Tactics subtracting a shield.

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Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Bud & Lou(70), Harley Quinn II(180), Captain America(240) (490)
vs.
Star-Lord(250), Nebula(240) (490)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R1T3: 1 wound on Nebula. (Lou)
R1T3: 1 wound on Nebula(botch). (Bud)
R2T2: 1 wound on Star-Lord. (Bud) (Pack Tactics)
R2T3: 1 wound on Nebula. (Bud) (Pack Tactics)

Harley's Babies:
R1T2: moved
R1T3: engaged Nebula.
R2T1: attacked
R2T2: moved and attacked
R2T3: moved and attacked

Pack Tactics:
R2T1: removed 1 shield from Nebula's defense roll.
R2T2: removed 1 shield from Star-Lord's defense roll.
R2T2: removed 1 shield from Star-Lord's defense roll, allowing Harley to remove an OM.
R2T3: removed 1 shield from Nebula's defense roll.
R2T3: removed 1 shield from Nebula's defense roll, allowing Harley to remove an OM.

Notes:
R1T3: Nebula puts 2 wounds on Cap.
R1: Nebula heals 1 wound.
R2T1: Cap puts 1 wound on Nebula thanks to Pack Tactics.
R2T1: Nebula puts 1 wound on Cap.
R2T2: Harley puts 1 wound on Star-Lord with PGSA and removes OM2.
R2T3: Harley puts 2 wounds on Nebula with PGSA and removes OMX.
R2T3: Nebula kills Cap.
R3T1: Star-Lord kills Bud(botch).
R3T2: Star-Lord kills Lou(botch). Nebula kills Harley.


Nebula with 5/6 wounds, and Star-Lord with 2/5 wounds.

Another pretty close match that felt like anyone's game. Bud & Lou certainly played a much bigger factor this time around, stripping some shields to do some damage. They also managed to defend a couple of attacks until falling to Star-Lord.

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Army Test 3
Map: Custom
Units:
Bud & Lou(70), Harley Quinn II(180), Darkseid(380) (630)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Wolverine(280), Swordsman(160) (630)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T1: 1 wound on Luke Cage(botch). (Bud)
R2T1: 2 wounds on Luke Cage(botch). (Lou)

Harley's Babies:
R1T3: moved
R2T1: move and attack

Pack Tactics:
R2T1: removed 1 shield from Luke Cage's defense roll and Harley removed OM.

Notes:
R1T2: Darkseid puts 2 wounds on Wolverine.
R1T2: Wolverine puts 4 wounds on Darkseid, then heals 1 wound.
R1T3: Harley puts 1 wound on Wolverine and removes the XOM.
R2T1: Wolverine kills Darkseid, then heals 1 wound.
R2T1: Harley puts 1 wound on Luke Cage with PGSA and removed OM3. (Pack Tactics)
R2T2: Wolverine kills Harley and Lou, then heals 1 wound. Cage kills Bud.


Luke Cage with 4/5 wounds, Wolverine with 1/6 wounds, and Swordsman unwounded.

Not a very close match this go around. Darkseid got eaten up by Wolverine, even with Wolverine rolling 1 fewer attack. Harley as well got dominated by Wolverine. Bud and Lou along with Harley did a number on Luke Cage before they went out though. Had the dice rolls been a bit more even, it probably would have been closer, but this felt like the Fighters' game.

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THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
Bud and Lou make great companions to Harley I and II. For Harley I, they offer 2 additional attacks of 3, with a potential shield reduction for them and Harley. Subtracting a shield for her Bomb SA can be a great combo. Speaking of great combos, they pair even better with Harley II's Pop Gun Special Attack, as it already lowers their defense by 1, so a shield subtraction can make it that much more likely to cause a wound, which then allows the removal of an OM. Their 1 life, Unique classification, and requirement of them both being alive and engaged to get the shield subtraction keeps them in check. If left alone, they can be quite a devastating combo for Harley and her allies, but if the opponent chooses to focus on them early, they'll be neutered quite easily. I expect stats can be dialed if needed to make sure they stay at 70 points, if they feel under or over through further testing. As-is, I'm thinking they're close, if not slightly over costed.

[Tornado]

That Darkseid build looks scary. I would try mixing in Judge Fear for another shield removal.

[dok]

Late to the game, but no major concerns. Pack attack is really strong because subtracting a rolled shield is roughly the equivalent of rolling 3 fewer dice. Still, it's a 2 figure unique squad so it would take a peculiar combo to really exploit it.

(Confused by pack attack wording; shouldn't it be something like "when an opponent rolls defense dice for [blah blah] they must subtract 1 shield from the result"?)

[Scapemage]

I'd err on the side of caution based on dok's comments and stay where we are for now. If the cost really is too high, they can come down later in the process. This is reminiscent of The Top from recently where there are some concerns about defense reduction stacking, so those should be explored more in public testing before landing on a point value.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Scapemage

I'd err on the side of caution based on dok's comments and stay where we are for now. If the cost really is too high, they can come down later in the process. This is reminiscent of The Top from recently where there are some concerns about defense reduction stacking, so those should be explored more in public testing before landing on a point value.

For the record I don't have the same issue here as with Top. It's the idea that you don't get to roll defense against a normal attack that bothered me more. They don't contribute to that, since you get to roll. It is stronger than subtracting a defense in most cases but not neutering.

[Arkham]

Essentially all you need to do to shut it down is Wound one of them. At 5 defense, that shouldn’t be too hard. Not being Heroes they have less boost and bonding options as well so Valkyrie for example can’t protect them.

I’m fine with leaving them as-is at the current point value though. Public testing will provide more data.

[Arkham]

This officially passes to Initial Playtesting.

I propose a vote to move to Public Playtesting.

[Yodaking]

yea