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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #121  
Old September 4th, 2018, 12:43 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Fair enough I guess. I was trying to not make this a vacuum of only Trickster and Top and I was more pointing out all the defensive subtraction powers that are or could be included. I was attempting to bring up should they all be limited to a -1 since we had some that were and some that weren't. I think dok has pointed out some of my issues. If a figure has a minimum of 1 it was probably for a reason and if another figure comes back and brings that to 0 do we have an issue? I don't know if we do or do not. Perhaps we just need to make a list off all these powers and see.

I also don't know if I agree that Trickster is too fragile to get a boost. Captain America can turn a team of Rouges and Vertigo into Avengers and then 65 point Trickster is rolling 4 or 5 dice and getting to -3 defense for each blank. I've never had a huge issue trying to get Vertigo in a space where her 6 space aura isn't covering a huge section of the map. I don't feel like it's that hard to set up.

Sorry, I sort of crossed over several items within this post.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #122  
Old September 4th, 2018, 12:46 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Well, we're in the testing phase - we could test that if you're worried. I don't think it'd prove very fruitful, though.
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  #123  
Old September 4th, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't think the answers here are clear at all, but the problem is caused by the existence of a minimum, not solved by it.
It would be solved if they all had the same minimum. I don't think the existence of a minimum is the issue. I think it's the inconsistency.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #124  
Old September 4th, 2018, 12:57 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't think the answers here are clear at all, but the problem is caused by the existence of a minimum, not solved by it.
It would be solved if they all had the same minimum. I don't think the existence of a minimum is the issue. I think it's the inconsistency.
Sure, but the powers that impose minimums are the oddballs, by far. If we were to make everything consistent, it would be by removing the minimums.

(Try filtering the index's powers sheet based on the "Opponent's Defense" column and look through that set of powers - not all relevant, but a lot are. Then sort the power text based on the "minimum of 1" language)
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  #125  
Old September 4th, 2018, 12:59 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

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Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Well, we're in the testing phase - we could test that if you're worried. I don't think it'd prove very fruitful, though.
You are probably right. Especially since I'm not convinced that Top and Trickster are the problem. This just happens to be the point that I noticed something I thought could be a potential issue somewhere.

I'm not standing on a table yelling that we need to stop. I'm just stating something I saw.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #126  
Old September 4th, 2018, 01:01 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I did a quick search of "minimum of" in the sortable index and got this list of relevant abilities. All of them are reducing the relevant stat(s) to a "minimum of 1":
  • DarkSeid/Iron Monger Imposing Presence (A,D)
  • Mister Freeze Freeze Ray/Ice Freeze Blast (M,D)
  • Mole Man Swarm Distraction (D)
  • Saturn Girl Mental Walls (A)
  • Wonder Man Celebrity Status (D)
  • Ant Man Small But Mighty (A)
  • Count Vertigo Nullify (R)
  • Dazzler Dazzled (MRAD)

I believe those are the only two powers that subtract from Range, and both call out a minimum of 1. That's probably a good policy to stick with (i.e. we shouldn't make a range subtraction power that doesn't have a minimum unless we really want to be able to completely null a figure's ability to attack).

Aside from that, I think the ruling should probably be that if the subtractions could reduce a stat to zero, while one (but not all) power reduces to a minimum of 1, the stat is reduced to zero. The logic is that the player who controls the power can choose to apply the relevant powers in whatever order they choose. If different players control the relevant powers and they can't agree on the order (possible in a free for all), you dice off to decide the order. (Probably best to limit the dice off to once per turn to prevent tedious/weird interactions.)

Example possible R&C:

Q: If I attack a 3-defense figure next to Darkseid with Wolverine, does Imposing Presence help reduce the defense to 0, or does it stop at 1 defense?
A: The controlling player decides the order the powers are applied.
If the same player controls Wolverine and Darkseid, then they can apply Imposing Presence first to reduce defense to 2, then apply Adamantium Claws to reduce defense to 0.

Q: What if different players control the defense-reducing powers?
A: The players dice off to decide which power is applied first that turn.
So the first time Wolverine attacked that figure that turn, the two players would roll d20s. If Darkseid's power is applied first the figure's defense would be 0; if Wolverine's power is applied first the figure's defense is 1. That order remains in effect until the end of that player turn; you dice off again the next player turn.

Last edited by dok; September 4th, 2018 at 01:14 PM. Reason: I'm often struck by how many corner cases are only relevant in multiplayer.
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  #127  
Old September 4th, 2018, 01:16 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I’m in support of that Q and A. That’s how I view things as well.

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  #128  
Old September 4th, 2018, 01:27 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I think that's a good interpretation, but I wouldn't mind updating a few cards to strike out those minimums, at least for Move and Defense, just to reduce the number of cases where this can come up.
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  #129  
Old September 4th, 2018, 01:58 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I'd be happy to see simplification of the powers for Mole Man, Wonder Man, and Mister Freeze/Ice. But Imposing Presence and Dazzled both tie up the Move/Defense reduction with another stat reduction, so you couldn't remove those minimums without some kind of annoying wording changes.

But I think you could extend it to Attack as well, honestly. The only uncapped attack reduction powers are:
  • Psycho-Man Fear
  • Atom Mollecular Irritant
  • Tombstone Intimidating Presence
  • Mockingbird Mocking Words (d20 roll required)
  • Kryptonie Man Kryptonian Killer (limited to Kryptonians, all of whom have 4A+)
  • Clayface Smother

  • Brainiac 12-level intellect (actually works on skulls)
  • Falcon Redwing Distraction (actually works on skulls)

Some of these powers are limited by timing in the round, once per round effect, ability to remove the effect, or d20 roll. But to be honest I don't feel like there's any solid reason why Tombstone or Falcon's abilities should be uncapped while Darkseid/Iron Monger/Ant Man are capped at 1. What's the worst situation here? Destiny unable to wound Ant-Man in endgame? Kyle Rayner out of markers, double engaged at a choke point by Falcon and Tombstone?

I mean, these may be auto-wins, but there are plenty of auto-shield powers, and these produce auto-wins with much more reliability than attack reduction does.

So really, I think you could just toss a "range cannot be reduced below 1" in Dazzler's power, leave Count Vertigo unchanged, and strike out every other minimum.
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  #130  
Old September 4th, 2018, 02:04 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
So really, I think you could just toss a "range cannot be reduced below 1" in Dazzler's power, leave Count Vertigo unchanged, and strike out every other minimum.
I'd be fine with that.

There's actually also Fear Gas, Sleeping Gas, and the Cosmic Converter Belt that have minimums.

Fear Gas still needs an update anyway, to be rebranded as "Gas: Fear Gas".
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  #131  
Old September 4th, 2018, 02:41 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

So what I am making of this is that Top isn't actually a problem here. We should add a line stating "defense can't be reduced below 0" to this power and many more. Am I reading that right?

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  #132  
Old September 4th, 2018, 02:45 PM
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Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

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Originally Posted by Scapemage View Post
So what I am making of this is that Top isn't actually a problem here. We should add a line stating "defense can't be reduced below 0" to this power and many more. Am I reading that right?
No. We should get rid of the existing minimums on a few other powers, leave Top totally as-is, and update the C3G Book of Rules to clarify that you can't reduce defense below 0.

Only action item for Top is to maybe test him with Trickster + Vertigo to see how a triple-reduction stack goes.
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