The Book of Hatamoto Taro - Page 7

txedomask · #73 July 23rd, 2008, 05:12 PM

Since one of the recent errata said that you cannot mindshackle a unique figure that you already control, his aura would not be able to effect a mindshackled Hatamato.

Aldin · #74 July 24th, 2008, 12:33 AM

Ever since someone posted an army with him the other day I've been trying to figure out how to make HT earn his keep and I'm just baffled. His personal stats are awful. He isn't cheap enough to boost a Samurai unit in a primarily non-Samurai 500 point army. So he needs to get his value in his special and to do that requires lots of 3+ defense Sammies. The obvious problem there is that all those units/squads have no more than three members and also have no bonding. PLUS the cheapest they come is 20/fig AND only ONE squad is common (with an attack of two). Jungle helps, Raelin helps (for 80 points), but it is difficult to fathom an army where you'd rather have HT than... say... Kaemon Awa. The very best army I can fathom for him has a dirty little secret:

Hatamoto Taro 130
4xTagawa Samurai Archers 260
Kozuke Samurai 100
Isamu 10

The secret is that I think it's a better army if you drop HT and Isamu to pick up Raelin and the Izumi.

The only two units that benefit more from HT than from Raelin are the Tagawa Samurai and the Izumi Samurai. But if you insist on that base you have spent 310 points for what amounts to little more than a toothless melee screen.

Finally, he isn't a sensible counter draft to anything. I couldn't imagine a scenario where my opponent picks a unit and I think HT might be part of the solution.

Has anyone had success with him in a 500 point army against a reasonably competitive squad?

~Aldin, brain wracked

manger · #75 August 21st, 2008, 01:52 PM

I enjoy using Hatamoto and the samurai when playing themed games. I've had some success using him against Orc armies, Knight and Sentinel armies. The reason he works well in this situation is obvious, both above armies are melee oriented with at best weak ranged attacks and little to no special attack capabilities. Which leads me to believe that when using flag bearers it is courteous to counter draft with a flag bearer as long as the flag bearer you choose to counter draft with is not laglor who has a strong ranged attack with a special attack capability.

killercactus · #76 August 21st, 2008, 03:27 PM

I can somewhat begin to see Taro being decent in a Heat of the Battle game where everyone starts engaged. The problem with that is that you better have more cards than your opponent, or else he's gonna be shooting at you. And with the samurai being expensive, that's gonna be tough.

Not to mention special attacks.... blah blah blah

Jexik · #77 August 21st, 2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercactus

I can somewhat begin to see Taro being decent in a Heat of the Battle game where everyone starts engaged. The problem with that is that you better have more cards than your opponent, or else he's gonna be shooting at you. And with the samurai being expensive, that's gonna be tough.

Not to mention special attacks.... blah blah blah

We need something like the Izumi, but common. TSA don't have quite enough D.

Tyrnix · #78 August 21st, 2008, 09:35 PM

I still can't help but think how much more awesome Ham-ham would be if he was the version listed on Hasbro's web site. Inspired Defensive aura is so much better than Heroic and at 30 points less who cares if he loses 1 attack over how he is now.

NamibianScaper · #79 October 30th, 2008, 03:51 AM

I came to this thread because I was very curious about the wrong card for Hatamoto Taro on the official Heroscape site, here. I found a couple of comments here on this thread about it. Read those and then my comment below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

I soooo want to like this guy... But:

1) He's the most expensive Flag Bearer? Why?? 130pts, as is, is pretty much impossible to justify.

2) Attack of 2? Really? Couldn't even give him an average attack of 3?

3) Aura doesn't help defend against range? BIGGEST handicap to his worth right here. If the aura helped against range, I'd use him fairly regularly with my Samurai armies.

Against an opposing all-melee army, he's worth his salt... but seeing as how most armies have at least SOME ranged support, (as they usually should... mixed melee/range armies work best), he will continue to gather dust unless "fixed" by some future release.

I really wonder how they playtested this guy to determine his points???

Here is what I think happened: He was playtested like this.....

*image from Heroscape websight
They realized with it working against any attack that he was too good of a value at 100. So they upped him to 130 and bumped some stats. Then through play testing they decided the special had to be changed too. Maybe they had it just normal at one time and maybe just adjacent. However they did it, they ended up with the special having to be adjacent and normal, like counter strike. Then I guess instead of dropping the points back down, they forgot (??) and he got realeased in his current crappy form. Sounds blundering I know but people are human. A mistake is the only thing that can explain how he turned out. I really think they just got cross ways testing several versions of Taro and he got released with a price point that was not in line with his power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrnix

I still can't help but think how much more awesome Ham-ham would be if he was the version listed on Hasbro's web site. Inspired Defensive aura is so much better than Heroic and at 30 points less who cares if he loses 1 attack over how he is now.

It's very strange to me that the 'wrong' card is on the official Heroscape site. (The only other card I found like this was Ornak--worse than the current version!)

I agree with Rÿchean--it makes no sense how he got worse and more expensive than the card on the site. I don't see how it could be considered too powerful either. We have Kato now and we have also heard from a designer that the Samurai army is complete for the time being.

I agree with Tyrnix too. It would be so much better.

I'm going to print this out and house-rule it as the official card.

As for competitive/tournament/real Heroscape, I don't know why an official ruling can't be made to make this the official card. It already exists and alongside the other cards I've downloaded looks more official than the scan I have of his real card.

I still think his attack totally stinks for a Samurai. Three explanations come to mind: 1.) That is why he's the one holding the flag, duh. 2.) The Izumi only have an attack of 2 so it's not like all Samurai are awesome. 3.) He's old and decrepit.

I think the Samurai are a great theme and am patiently waiting for our family release of Kato in early 2009, along with the Tagawa unique and common squads.

I also benefited from this thread by what Billtog said about the Tagawa archers vs. Harquebus. Thanks!

TexMex · #80 October 30th, 2008, 11:18 AM

I agree with almost everything being said about Hatamato Taro's "wrong" card. However, I really like the samurai the way they are. There's an art to using them and the Ashigaru that makes me want to master that art--which I'm far from doing. And perhaps no one has just yet, but with higher point standards and Kato in the picture now, I have a feeling we'll be seeing some tourneys won with the samurai, Hatamato Taro included.

killercactus · #81 October 30th, 2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexMex

I agree with almost everything being said about Hatamato Taro's "wrong" card. However, I really like the samurai the way they are. There's an art to using them and the Ashigaru that makes me want to master that art--which I'm far from doing. And perhaps no one has just yet, but with higher point standards and Kato in the picture now, I have a feeling we'll be seeing some tourneys won with the samurai, Hatamato Taro included.

I would love to see that happen, but I just can't see it with 130 points spend on Taro. Kaemon Awa win a tournament? yeah. The Tagawa? yeah. Kato and the Ashigaru? Maybe. Hatamoto and samurai? Not until something comes out that fixes him.

TexMex · #82 October 30th, 2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercactus

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexMex

I agree with almost everything being said about Hatamato Taro's "wrong" card. However, I really like the samurai the way they are. There's an art to using them and the Ashigaru that makes me want to master that art--which I'm far from doing. And perhaps no one has just yet, but with higher point standards and Kato in the picture now, I have a feeling we'll be seeing some tourneys won with the samurai, Hatamato Taro included.

I would love to see that happen, but I just can't see it with 130 points spend on Taro. Kaemon Awa win a tournament? yeah. The Tagawa? yeah. Kato and the Ashigaru? Maybe. Hatamoto and samurai? Not until something comes out that fixes him.

You raise fair points, but cannot the release of Kato and a boost in games averaging above 500 points be the fix Hatamoto needs?

killercactus · #83 October 30th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexMex

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercactus

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexMex

I agree with almost everything being said about Hatamato Taro's "wrong" card. However, I really like the samurai the way they are. There's an art to using them and the Ashigaru that makes me want to master that art--which I'm far from doing. And perhaps no one has just yet, but with higher point standards and Kato in the picture now, I have a feeling we'll be seeing some tourneys won with the samurai, Hatamato Taro included.

I would love to see that happen, but I just can't see it with 130 points spend on Taro. Kaemon Awa win a tournament? yeah. The Tagawa? yeah. Kato and the Ashigaru? Maybe. Hatamoto and samurai? Not until something comes out that fixes him.

You raise fair points, but cannot the release of Kato and a boost in games averaging above 500 points be the fix Hatamoto needs?

Maybe if points get up around, say, 1000. Even at 700, I can't see him being worth it. There are just too many other good options for his cost.

Ikari · #84 October 30th, 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamibianScaper

I came to this thread because I was very curious about the wrong card for Hatamoto Taro on the official Heroscape site, here. I found a couple of comments here on this thread about it. Read those and then my comment below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

I soooo want to like this guy... But:

1) He's the most expensive Flag Bearer? Why?? 130pts, as is, is pretty much impossible to justify.

2) Attack of 2? Really? Couldn't even give him an average attack of 3?

3) Aura doesn't help defend against range? BIGGEST handicap to his worth right here. If the aura helped against range, I'd use him fairly regularly with my Samurai armies.

Against an opposing all-melee army, he's worth his salt... but seeing as how most armies have at least SOME ranged support, (as they usually should... mixed melee/range armies work best), he will continue to gather dust unless "fixed" by some future release.

I really wonder how they playtested this guy to determine his points???

Here is what I think happened: He was playtested like this.....

*image from Heroscape websight
They realized with it working against any attack that he was too good of a value at 100. So they upped him to 130 and bumped some stats. Then through play testing they decided the special had to be changed too. Maybe they had it just normal at one time and maybe just adjacent. However they did it, they ended up with the special having to be adjacent and normal, like counter strike. Then I guess instead of dropping the points back down, they forgot (??) and he got realeased in his current crappy form. Sounds blundering I know but people are human. A mistake is the only thing that can explain how he turned out. I really think they just got cross ways testing several versions of Taro and he got released with a price point that was not in line with his power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrnix

I still can't help but think how much more awesome Ham-ham would be if he was the version listed on Hasbro's web site. Inspired Defensive aura is so much better than Heroic and at 30 points less who cares if he loses 1 attack over how he is now.

It's very strange to me that the 'wrong' card is on the official Heroscape site. (The only other card I found like this was Ornak--worse than the current version!)

I agree with Rÿchean--it makes no sense how he got worse and more expensive than the card on the site. I don't see how it could be considered too powerful either. We have Kato now and we have also heard from a designer that the Samurai army is complete for the time being.

I agree with Tyrnix too. It would be so much better.

Do you think this issue could be brought to the attention of someone in WotC.

What Rÿchean says sounds very reasonable and could actually be what really happened. This card needs to be reviewed. The current official card can be fixed by simply reducing Hamtaro's cost of 130pts to 100pts. Or the other fix could be to change his aura to the inspired aura and leaving his cost of 130pts. This way his points value is worth it.