Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

[Sheep]

There is also this issue.

Originally Posted by Sir Dendrik

So I just received my order of 8 Green Wyrmlings, the new ones that revived this discussion. They are scrawny. Like half the size of a Blue Wyrmling, as in emaciated. I'll try to get pictures but I don't really have a camera (no iphone, sorry :P).

I'm just kind of doing my own thing because this design by committee has got me down, but 4/4 is waaaay too strong for this sculpt. 3/3 is generous--they look like 2/2.

Thought I'd caution you all to sculpt issues now, before this 2 year long project kicks into high gear.

[UtahScott]

New figure option:
WizKids' Nolzur's Marvelous Miniatures unpainted figure line released Wave 11 March this year.

Two blisters have wyrmlings, a Gold dragon (#90028, with a small treasure pile) and blisterpack #90029: Green Wyrmling and Afflicted Elf.

These figures are primed but unpainted. Assuming the base is 1", this Wyrmling looks exactly to scale with our Red and Blue Wyrmlings.
I'll see if my FLGS has this on the shelf today for comparison purposes, otherwise I'll order one to take pics for y'all.

Wave 10 also released Black, Red, and Blue Wyrmlings, for those who missed the 'Scape ones, #73850-2 respectively.


Color image:
https://icv2.com/image/44495/3
I can't post pics...?



P.S. [There's a Gargantuan Skeletal Dragon in Wave 11 for $30 retail, similar to Su-Bak-Na, without the Marro. It's on its hind legs, but I don't know if the feet will fit a large peanut...I remember there was a C3V design for an undead Dragon many years back, don't remember the name (for Valkrill?), but there wasn't availability for the D&D boardgame mini at the time.]

P.P.S. [There are also enough Aasimar fighter options in the line to have a full squad of Aquilla Kyrie, plus two or three Aquilla Kyrie heroes. Someone would need to come up with a paint scheme for all the figures. Anyone interested in pursuing this option? I can hunt the packs down.]

[DanieLoche]

You can find a picture of the first miniature found for the GW here.
(also, that's indeed a Bronze D&D dragon and not a green-washed one)

Otherwise, as long as you are okay to go with a non-D&D figure, there is the Safari mini Forest dragon... but it's hard to find (the keywords to search for it on the internet don't fit really well...) and I am not sure it's size would fit really well for semi-official heroscape IMO (or only as a really nice and cheap proxy)

[lefton4ya]

Sadly the Safari figures are even smaller than the D&D ones. I looked around and could not find a pre-painted figure about the same size as what we need that is in enough quantities. See my post a couple pages back on 3D printing or the unpainted one @UtahScott posted above looks good.

[caps]

In regards to the concerns about the power-level of the green wyrmling being "overblown" I think that is misunderstanding the feedback. I read killometer's review and see a unit that is unfun for melee-only armies to play against, and possibly too good against some of the best melee-only builds.

[dok]

That's nyys's review, but anyway, and I think the characterization of that criticism as being about the power level is fair. He's saying he thinks it's stronger than other counterstriking armies.

At any rate, I think we've addressed those issues somewhat in our newer version with more attack, less defense, and a different take on counterstrike that's less punitive to squads.

[SIEGE]

Originally Posted by dok

I agree, I like that quite a bit.

Just putting that together:

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 35

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
For each excess shield a Green Wyrmling rolls when defending against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, roll an unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.

WYRMLING BONDING

FLYING

I was working on my own design for a Green Wyrmling, and then I discovered this thread. I really like this version and decided to playtest it because I would like to see an SoV or C3V Green Wyrmling.


Playtest Results:

Spoiler Alert!

- THEME TEST: PASS. Thematically, this is my favorite version of the Green Wyrmling that I have seen yet. Fledgling Counterstrike is exactly 50% the potency of Counterstrike in all situations. It has all of the Wyrmling trademarks and is a mini version of Charos.
- MIRROR TEST: PASS.
- BONDING TEST: PASS.
- SYNERGIES TEST: Questionable. Works well with 4th Massachusetts Line but I did not find 4th Massachusetts Line + Green Wyrmling overpowered. I did find Raelin + Green Wyrmling to be overpowered.
- POWER CHECK: FAIL. Common unit with 4 attack, 4 defense, Fledgling Counter Strike, Wyrmling Bonding, and Flying is too strong with Raelin at 35 points.
- FUN TEST: Questionable. Playing a mini Charos sounds really fun, but this version wasn’t fun to play because it was too powerful and effective. If it was more balanced, it would actually be really fun.
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST: FAIL. Frustrating to play against. Stuck between trying to reach Raelin taking leaving engagements or plowing through Green Wyrmlings' Fledgling Counterstrike backed by Raelin.
- DRAFTING TEST: PASS. Definitely worth drafting.
- USAGE TEST: PASS. Fledgling Counter Strike was never used in Heavy Hitter Test and Squad Test, but was used in Army Test.
- STRATEGY TEST: PASS. Lots of strategy with Green Wyrmling. How many to draft? What other units to use with it? Use it offensively or defensively?

PLAY TEST LIST FOR FIGURE UNITS

- HEAVY HITTER TEST: Green Wyrmling vs Blue Wyrmling. 4-to-1. Could be better. In my version of Green Wyrmling, I used 3 attack, 4 defense (and a different version of Fledgling Counterstrike that triggered about as frequently as this version) and it as 3-to-2.

- SQUAD TEST: Green Wyrmling vs Venoc Vipers. 0-to-1. PASS.

- ARMY TEST: Green Wyrmling x6, Raelin RotV, 4th Mass. x3 vs Knights x4, Sir Glibert, Alastair MacDirk

Surviving Units: Raelin RotV 2/5, 1 Green Wyrmling, 10 4th Mass.
Fledgling counter strike triggered 8 times. 5 times successfully wounded/destroyed figures, and 3 dealt no wounds.

Green Wyrmlings were backed by Raelin most of the time and almost never had height advantage. Sometimes the Knights had height advantage.

2 Green Wyrmlings hit Sir Gilbert for 4 skull vs 0 shields and 2 skulls vs 0 shields in 1 turn early in the game and hurt the Knight's movement.

The Green Wyrmlings destroyed more units than the 4th Mass. did.

I did not bother with a 2nd game because the Green Wyrmling was too powerful.

General Thoughts: Thematically, this is my favorite version of the Green Wyrmling and I really want to see a thematic but balanced Green Wyrmling. I didn't want to believe what others were saying about it being too powerful, but now that I see it, I have to agree with them and nyys's findings.

In short, this is my favorite version so far, but it's still too powerful.

In reading the thread, lots of people have suggested all sorts of changes to balance the Green Wyrmling, but I don't think anyone has seriously suggested changing the point value. This is a case where you can't lock all of the variables. If you want a common hero with Fledgling Counter Strike (any version proposed so far), Wyrmling Bonding, and Flying with Move 5 and Defense 4, then you can't lock the point value at 35. It has to change to fit these other stats.

I would propose the following changes:

Move 4 (There is precedent for a Wyrmling to have 1 less Move than the parent. This would help limit the Green Wyrmling from Flying into advantageous positions on the map.)

Drop Attack or Defense to 3 (Dropping attack is more conservative. Dropping defense might make the Green Wyrmling feel less like mini Charos, but it would reduce the potency of adding Raelin, height, or a Defense glyph to Fledgling Counterstrike.)

Points 40 or 45 (40 is more conservative theme-wise. There is no precedent for a Wyrmling at more than 35 points, but out of all the thematic elements to break, I think breaking the point value element is the least offensive. I would rather have a Green Wyrmling at 45 points than no Green Wyrmling at all.)

[Taeblewalker]

Originally Posted by SIEGE

Points 40 or 45 (40 is more conservative theme-wise. There is no precedent for a Wyrmling at more than 35 points, but out of all the thematic elements to break, I think breaking the point value element is the least offensive. I would rather have a Green Wyrmling at 45 points than no Green Wyrmling at all.)

Agreed.

[Sheep]

Agreed. Point values are reserved for balance, not correlation/parallels from one unit to another.

I suggested the 4 move previously in this thread. dok kind of shot it down quickly (admittedly in favor of tests before doing so) but flying and 4 move is good on 90% of competitive maps.

I'm not so worried about Gerda because most competitive glyph pools have removed it. Between it and Raelin, games last much longer than they should when figures are each rolling 5-7 defense.

[dok]

I don't see why green wyrmlings in their perfect matchup with A+ backing should be expected to lose.

[Taeblewalker]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Agreed. Point values are reserved for balance, not correlation/parallels from one unit to another.

I suggested the 4 move previously in this thread. dok kind of shot it down quickly (admittedly in favor of tests before doing so) but flying and 4 move is good on 90% of competitive maps.

I'm not so worried about Gerda because most competitive glyph pools have removed it. Between it and Raelin, games last much longer than they should when figures are each rolling 5-7 defense.

I saw a game where Captain America was rolling 9 defense dice because his team had both Gerda and Jalguard.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by dok

I don't see why green wyrmlings in their perfect matchup with A+ backing should be expected to lose.

Well this too. I was mostly agreeing with the notion that if necessary, points can go beyond 35. I was also pointing out that I would rather change the Move than the attack/defense values (every other dragon/wyrmling attack/defense values mirror each other).

Agreed that we would need further testing against a magnitude of armies to determine their true value.

I am being further and further convinced that I need to pick up these minis. Idk if it would be worth buying out eBay and selling them back to Scapers for a little cheaper, something I am willing to lose a little bit of money on (and be totally transparent with) if it secures us as many minis as possible.