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  #109  
Old January 30th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Alastair MacDirk's Avatar
Alastair MacDirk Alastair MacDirk is offline
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Just a thought about swapping armies. Feel free to shoot this down, but just wanted to suggest this.

That your fate in the next round is based on the strength of the army you beat this round. If you draw a weak opponent's army, you will be at a huge disadvantage in the next round and it'd make you want to keep your own army.

What if after the first round everyone who wanted to switch put their armies up for reassignment. Then we would each draft an army (in entirety, not squad or hero at a time) from the pool of armies from highest seed to lowest. Repeat after each round. Make a rule that nobody can draft the same army twice.
If you give each person a 30 second time limit to decide then the draft will take less than 10 mins. It gives folks a bit more flexibility in which army they play.

I just don't want this tourney to come down to the luck of the draw (especially the strength of 1st round opponent)

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Last edited by Alastair MacDirk; January 30th, 2009 at 12:40 PM. Reason: editing makes the fa rt go honda
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  #110  
Old January 30th, 2009, 01:24 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
What if after the first round everyone who wanted to switch put their armies up for reassignment. Then we would each draft an army (in entirety, not squad or hero at a time) from the pool of armies from highest seed to lowest. Repeat after each round. Make a rule that nobody can draft the same army twice.
Wouldn't this have the effect that the early winners will pull farther ahead because they get to draft the best armies first? This would make it harder for the early losers to turn their luck around and better their standings.

~Z


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  #111  
Old January 30th, 2009, 01:49 PM
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Alastair MacDirk Alastair MacDirk is offline
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmgames View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
What if after the first round everyone who wanted to switch put their armies up for reassignment. Then we would each draft an army (in entirety, not squad or hero at a time) from the pool of armies from highest seed to lowest. Repeat after each round. Make a rule that nobody can draft the same army twice.
Wouldn't this have the effect that the early winners will pull farther ahead because they get to draft the best armies first? This would make it harder for the early losers to turn their luck around and better their standings.

~Z
NO! But, look at this way, if you are in the losers bracket you will be evenly matched in round 2 since your army was drafted closely to where your opponent got his army from the pool. Compare that with the original format. You lose the first round and the winner decides he does not want to switch armies with you... then you have even less of a chance of reversing your fortune even if you win your second game.

We're talking about the same mediocre army in both examples. My way a loser would play it against a similar mediocre army in the 2nd bracket. With the current system a winner would take the mediocre army to play a potentially great army in the winners bracket. Doesn't seem a fair way to reward winning, does it?

Swiss tourney is not exactly single elimination, but I would bet that if you looked at statistics of people that lost their 1st round game and then won the tourney it'd be less than 5%. Probably 1%. My advice.... make it your plan to go undefeated if you plan on winning the tourney.

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Last edited by Alastair MacDirk; January 30th, 2009 at 04:50 PM. Reason: None of your biznatch.
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  #112  
Old January 31st, 2009, 11:05 AM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Damn MacDirk, always throwing a wrench in the works. You make some excellent points. I had to noodle on them for a bit. Logically they all made sense, but something in my gut was twisting.

I woke up and it hit me (yes, I have dream-scape ). The logistics of drafting armies gives me a headache when I consider us crammed in Endgame's mezzanine.
  • We may have a free table, but odds are against it, so just looking through the armies available to draft is likely gonna to be a pain. They'll need to be spread out which means it will take more time to peruse the options available (unless your work up a sweat running around in circles) ... add 15 sec for travel time?
    .
  • A sheet of paper with all of the armies listed would help speedup the draft, but someone has to assemble the list of armies. Could be part of a check in procedure that you register your army on the list, but woe be to them that has to read my hand writing. OK it is not that bad, but you get the point.
There is also a potential for counter drafting, giving the second person of a pair an advantage ... if you know the basic pairing algorithm, people at the top can figure out who they will be playing (even if they are not told before drafting armies). Granted it is not easy, but it is not that hard either. This probably is not an issues, the more I think about it, since all of the top armies should be able to kill each other ... but you never know. Regardless, before drafting people should not know who they are matched against or what map they will be playing on.

So I like the idea, but I am concerned about its execution in a tourney setting.

BTW ... in the swiss format we have been using, the winner will be undefeated.

Cry endgame and let slip the doggin of war.
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  #113  
Old January 31st, 2009, 02:06 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Mr. Satyr,
That thing twisting in your gut was most likely some bad pizza you consumed recently.

Regarding room to display the armies... I recall they have 4x8 tables there big enough to display 50 armies. Look, everyone could bring an army in a large ziploc bag. The bags could be labeled with a # 1-16 and their contents listed on a sheet of paper. I will volunteer to do this idea gets supported, you will be able to read my handwriting. The drafting could then take place in groups by record (the folks likely to play each other in the next round). They take a piece of paper and list their army preference with as many armies listed as there are drafters in their group. Then their draft papers could be shuffled and armies awarded.

Example: 3rd round there will be 4 people 2-0 (assuming they all switched both rounds they have same tourney points). They take a slip of paper and write something like 1- 14, 2- 3, 3-7, 4- 1. Which means their first choice is army #14, 2nd choice army #3, etc. Then you shuffle those four players sheets (forget point differential as a way to rank them within the 2-0 group, pt. differential is flawed... random is fairer). Whichever sheet is pulled first gets his first choice, 2nd sheet gets his first choice that is available, etc. Then the next group of 8 players that are 1-1 write slips to draft preference 1-8. Etc.
No counter draft is possible as you don't know which army your likely opponent drafted. Make a rule that no player can play the same army twice. You give each group 2 minutes to write out their draft preference. It can take 10-15 minutes to get the draft done between rounds.

How is it possible that the swiss tourney you hosted at your house several yrs. ago... I lost my 3rd game.... then won the tourney. I guess not al swiss tourneys are the same is the answer. I don't know much about how the tourneys are scored.... I don't direct 'em..... I win 'em.

And finally to those of you who will argue in-tourney army drafting won't work.... I say this.....

I hope you draw a Gladiator based army as your first opponent. Anything is possible.... heck, I know a guy who was considering an army with 3x shades in it. You wanna go into the 2nd round with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkBladeCB
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Last edited by Alastair MacDirk; January 31st, 2009 at 02:21 PM.
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  #114  
Old January 31st, 2009, 03:31 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
Mr. Satyr,
That thing twisting in your gut was most likely some bad pizza you consumed recently.
I figured that was what wrecked my digestive track ... your weak attempts at sabotage will do you NO good MacDirk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
Example: 3rd round there will be 4 people 2-0 (assuming they all switched both rounds they have same tourney points). They take a slip of paper and write something like 1- 14, 2- 3, 3-7, 4- 1. Which means their first choice is army #14, 2nd choice army #3, etc. Then you shuffle those four players sheets (forget point differential as a way to rank them within the 2-0 group, pt. differential is flawed... random is fairer). Whichever sheet is pulled first gets his first choice, 2nd sheet gets his first choice that is available, etc. Then the next group of 8 players that are 1-1 write slips to draft preference 1-8. Etc.
I dunno. It seems flawed. If I bring a kick ass army that wins all the time it will follow me as I win each round and limits my draft picks ... knocks out two armies from the draft pool that I cannot choose (the one I just played and the one I brought). In your semifinal example, I can only write down two armies. With random drafting it is very possible that you will see armies you previously commanded in future draft rounds.

A similar issue pops up on the losing end of the spectrum and it gets worse if one person in that bracket decides not to trade in their army.

The fix is you need to be able to be able to select an army you already commanded once that day ... but not the last game.

This system is almost opposite RV's ... you are rewarded for taking a army you just beat into the next round. In your system you get to choose from all of the previous victors ... why wouldn't I swap? To that point, it does does a better job at encouraging people to switch armies.

re: tables you have some size distortion going on ... they are more like 3x5 if we are lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
How is it possible that the swiss tourney you hosted at your house several yrs. ago... I lost my 3rd game.... then won the tourney.
That tourney was not Swiss ... it was and experiment with PD and SOS. Just goes to show why the Swiss beats a pure PD

Cry endgame and let slip the doggin of war.
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  #115  
Old January 31st, 2009, 04:24 PM
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Alastair MacDirk Alastair MacDirk is offline
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

The tables used for Warhammer are 4x8. But 3x5 will suffice.


Can you please clarify all the statements in the middle of your last post where you are making point-counterpoint with yourself into one coherent recommendation?

With 3 pts per win for swapping it seems like a good assumption that the tourney winner will swap each time. With, as Satyr points out, Swiss tourney being single elimination. Then it seems reasonable to assume that the winner will be the guy gets a good draw on armies with which he can swap. I am just trying to come with a way that the tourney doesn't end with people grumbling that they had no shot because they faced some putrid armies.

Quote:
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And I have a man crush on good looking robots.


Last edited by Alastair MacDirk; January 31st, 2009 at 04:33 PM.
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  #116  
Old January 31st, 2009, 08:59 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk View Post
Can you please clarify all the statements in the middle of your last post ...
I thought my rambling circular arguments were fairly clear. But for the sake of those that can not follow:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
you need to be able to select an army you already commanded once that day ... but not the last game.
Without being able to draft an army you already commanded you set up conditions where the draft can break down. You should not, however, be allowed to select an army you just commanded the previous game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
[MacDirk's system] does a better job at encouraging people to switch armies.
I agree that it also limits the effects of drawing an opponent with a sub optimal army the first round. I was thinking seeding the first round based on previous tourney results could alleviate the issue, but I don't think seeding does the job as consistently.

Cry endgame and let slip the doggin of war.
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  #117  
Old February 1st, 2009, 05:06 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
Without being able to draft an army you already commanded you set up conditions where the draft can break down. You should not, however, be allowed to select an army you just commanded the previous game.
Perhaps this would be taken care of by two draft pools - the pool of armies-defeated-last-game-by-someone-who-wants-to-swap, and the armies-of-the-winners-who-want-to-swap. In keeping with the initial idea, the winners would only be able to draft from the pool of losing-side armies, then the losers would draft from the winning-side armies.

This seems more in keeping with the initial idea of getting extra points for choosing to play with an army you know can be defeated ('cause you just did it).

~Z


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  #118  
Old February 1st, 2009, 06:39 PM
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RoninValentina RoninValentina is offline
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Interesting discussion, gentlemen. But I'm not really all that eager to reconstuct the tourney format the week before the event. The proposed changes are interesting, but sound like a fair bit of extra work during the event. I have a simpler solution that will keep consistency with the current format and should be somewhat less gruntwork for all involved.

Upon winning the match, a winning player currently has two options available to him. Keep his army; forcing the loser to keep theirs as well, which I wasn't super happy with. Or they can trade armies with their opponent to remain more point competitive in the runnings, a choice that benefits both loser and winner. Simplifying the draft idea for players who want a new army but not the one they'd be stuck with, the solution to me seems to have more armies available than players. An Army sidebar, if you will. This sidebar will have 4 premade armies available upon it, which will be viewable at all times. (See below.) There's a catch however. If you trade with the sidebar, which available army you receive from the sidebar will be determined RANDOMLY. Likely by a d4 roll.

Trading with the sidebar:

- A winning player after a match may decide instead of trading with an opponent to trade with the sidebar. The player rolls the d4 and takes their new army. If a winning player chooses to trade with the sidebar, the losing player in the same match may either take the winning player's army automatically, or may also trade with the sidebar in the same fashion.(Winner trades first.) If a winning player chooses to keep his army, then a losing player may also initiate a trade with the sidebar. After each trade, the unselected army is added to the sidebar and made available for further trades.

- A player can only trade armies ONCE before each match. If you trade directly with your opponent, you may not then access the sidebar.

- Trading with the sidebar is done in match pairs, (winner, loser) on a first come first serve basis. All trades will be completed before the next match pairs are decided.

I chose the following armies to be balanced and decently mixed between competitiveness and repetitiveness on the tourney scene. I'm not looking for suggestions or replacements, but I will need help making them available for the event. I can only provide Army A in addition to my own army come gameday. I can bring some or most of the others, if it comes down to piecemealing them out, but for the sake of simplicity and making shore everyone takes home what they brought, it'd be nice to have individuals supply whole armies rather than parts of this army and that army. So, if you can supply one or more of these armies, please post saying so. Thanks.

Initial Sidebar Armies:

A. (Brought by Ronin Valentina)
Tor Kul Na - 220
Stingers x3 - 400
Nagrubs x2 - 460
Marcu - 480
- 18 starting spaces

B. (Brought by ?)
Sir Gilbert - 105
Finn - 185
KoW x2 - 325
AE - 435
Theracus - 475
- 16 starting spaces

C. (Brought by ?)
10th Reg x3 - 225
Zelrig - 410
Zetacron - 470
Isamu - 480
- 17 starting spaces

D. (Brought by ?)
Gladiatrons x2 - 160
Blastatrons x2 - 280
SotM Raelin - 400
James Murphy - 475
- 18 starting spaces

Comments, questions?


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Last edited by RoninValentina; February 1st, 2009 at 06:48 PM.
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  #119  
Old February 1st, 2009, 06:48 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

As interesting as that sounds, I think that may be overcomplicating things. Plus, whats to stop somebody from sidebarring nearly identical armies and just swapping Isamu+Otonashi for Marcu/Just Isamu/just Otonashi?
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  #120  
Old February 1st, 2009, 06:56 PM
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Re: NorCal New Year-New Army Tourney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S1R_ART0R1US View Post
As interesting as that sounds, I think that may be overcomplicating things. Plus, whats to stop somebody from sidebarring nearly identical armies and just swapping Isamu+Otonashi for Marcu/Just Isamu/just Otonashi?
Are you referring to my last post, or cmgames' last post, S1R?


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