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  #4477  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Desert-ey stuff strikes me as Einar (possibly Vydar with Sudema) - and it would be good to spread out the creepy-crawlies IMO.
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  #4478  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:09 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I don't like Stinger Venom thematically, especially given how different it is from the Wyvern's Venomous Sting. Rolling one fewer defense die if the Scorpion rolled at least one skull doesn't land terribly well, especially given that this result occurs before defense dice--which can represent much broader things than just blocking--are even rolled. Venom and poison have more often been representing things like increased damage (like the Drow or Sujoah), and though reduced defense gets there, it does it in a bit of a roundabout way that leads to some thematic oddities. The fact that it is only functionally different from a constant -1 defense against Counter Strike or other specific powers is also a bit weird.
The theme is that the strike, or poison, doesn't connect or effect the defender unless a skull is rolled. It's just a different mechanic to represent a similar theme. It doesn't need to operate the same as other venom or poison mechanics in order to still make thematic sense. The stronger point made by HS2010 is that as worded, it's really no different than and auto -1. That to me breaks more of the theme than just the fact that it's a different way to represent venom/poison.

Quote:
The other insects with 2 height generally have weaker stats to help combat this.
Yeah, maybe Def 1 is a change we'll make...but then again Spiders do pretty well for their statline and abilities and for almost half the cost...so I'm not going to worry too much about that, especially when Spiders benefit from height and Estivara just like the scorps would.
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  #4479  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Some good points are brought up that Stinger Venom is a bit silly in that it usually doesn't matter if the defender rolls defense or not in the scorpion doesn't roll any skulls. Astro's comment about it being different than other stinger effects got me thinking.

STINGER VENOM
If a High Dune Scorpion rolls skulls on all attack dice when attacking a small or medium figure, the defending figure rolls 2 less defense dice.

Interestingly (similar to other stinger powers), it makes attack auras less effective because it reduces the number of times it takes effect, which would make them easier to balance with Estivara. Also, it is more similar to Lethal Sting and Venomous Sting.
I like it. I think that's a pretty strong alternative to what we're trying to convey. As a Common Squad with 4 figures though, I'm worried -2 might be too good for what they can do. But, we can hash that out in testing.
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  #4480  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Some good points are brought up that Stinger Venom is a bit silly in that it usually doesn't matter if the defender rolls defense or not in the scorpion doesn't roll any skulls. Astro's comment about it being different than other stinger effects got me thinking.

STINGER VENOM
If a High Dune Scorpion rolls skulls on all attack dice when attacking a small or medium figure, the defending figure rolls 2 less defense dice.

Interestingly (similar to other stinger powers), it makes attack auras less effective because it reduces the number of times it takes effect, which would make them easier to balance with Estivara. Also, it is more similar to Lethal Sting and Venomous Sting.
I like it. I think that's a pretty strong alternative to what we're trying to convey. As a Common Squad with 4 figures though, I'm worried -2 might be too good for what they can do. But, we can hash that out in testing.
I'd do -2 against small and -1 against medium, personally.
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  #4481  
Old March 17th, 2021, 03:15 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I don't like Stinger Venom thematically, especially given how different it is from the Wyvern's Venomous Sting. Rolling one fewer defense die if the Scorpion rolled at least one skull doesn't land terribly well, especially given that this result occurs before defense dice--which can represent much broader things than just blocking--are even rolled. Venom and poison have more often been representing things like increased damage (like the Drow or Sujoah), and though reduced defense gets there, it does it in a bit of a roundabout way that leads to some thematic oddities. The fact that it is only functionally different from a constant -1 defense against Counter Strike or other specific powers is also a bit weird.
The theme is that the strike, or poison, doesn't connect or effect the defender unless a skull is rolled. It's just a different mechanic to represent a similar theme. It doesn't need to operate the same as other venom or poison mechanics in order to still make thematic sense. The stronger point made by HS2010 is that as worded, it's really no different than and auto -1. That to me breaks more of the theme than just the fact that it's a different way to represent venom/poison.
I don't have a problem with the idea of representing venom differently; the thematic disconnect here is simply that this mechanic does not feel like poison, unlike the other examples provided. The poison "landing" if a skull is rolled does not paint a strong enough theme considering the myriad of ways that this can still be bypassed, and the lack of a strong visual here is especially noticeable in comparison to some of the other poison and venom representations in HeroScape.

For the record, I don't love Venomous Sting as a representation of poison, either, but it functions decently as a callback to Lethal Sting. I think that Scytale's suggestion does a better job of calling back to this, and it also has the benefit of making Estivara less central to the design.

Quote:
Quote:
The other insects with 2 height generally have weaker stats to help combat this.
Yeah, maybe Def 1 is a change we'll make...but then again Spiders do pretty well for their statline and abilities and for almost half the cost...so I'm not going to worry too much about that, especially when Spiders benefit from height and Estivara just like the scorps would.
Spiders don't have effectively 3 defense against most armies or an offensive bonus. To be clear, I'm not convinced that the size is gamebreaking, but it is something that I suspect could be significant in testing outside of the common tournament maps, especially if it hasn't been considered before.
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  #4482  
Old March 17th, 2021, 03:40 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

yeah...talked to Leaf...we're going to try out the following in testing...

Quote:
STINGER VENOM
When attacking, if a High Dune Scorpion rolls skulls on all attack dice, the defending figure rolls 1 less defense dice.
We wanna keep the power simple as a blanket -1 so it's not too strong or too weak. that said, all skulls tends to be fairly infrequent, so we may move to -2 as testing pans out. time will tell.

Since that's quite a significant change to the power level (considering before it was basically auto -1 def AND it makes Estivara less of an auto-draft option) we'll leave changes to the design at that since we are actually quite happy with how Carapace has played out with the design.

Personality is noted at potentially Wild (not sold, but I can see it) and General maybe Einar (which we have considered previously, but can always revisit)
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  #4483  
Old March 25th, 2021, 01:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Miniature used is a Guant Stag Beetle from the recent Darklands Rising set. Any approximately sized toy bug will also do well I think.

CARD TEXT:
GENERAL = AQUILLA
PLANET = VALHALLA
SPECIES = INSECT
UNIQUENESS = UNCOMMON HERO
CLASS = SENTINEL
PERSONALITY = BOLD
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 4

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 4
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 80

PINCER TOSS
After moving and before attacking, choose an adjacent small or medium figure to toss. You may switch this Giant Stag Beetle's position with the chosen figure. After the figure is placed, roll the 20-sided die for tossing damage. If you roll a 15 or higher, the tossed figure receives 1 wound. If the figure is tossed onto a level higher than the height of this Giant Stag Beetle or onto water, do not roll for tossing damage. The tossed figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

FLYING
When counting spaces for a Giant Stag Beetle's movement, ignore elevations. A Giant Stag Beetle may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When a Giant Stag Beetle starts to fly, if it is engaged it will take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #4484  
Old March 25th, 2021, 05:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm down with another Insect Hero.

The design is in a good direction, but a few things feel off. "Sentinel" doesn't feel right as the class. It doesn't really match how real beetles act or how they would play given this design. "Bold" isn't terrible, but it doesn't feel quite right either. Good old "Wild" feels like a better fit. The Move value feels too low to make it useful; it feels like without free activations it won't be worth order markers, but I could be wrong.

Pincer Toss is a fine idea, but there are a few things I don't like about it. First, this thing is a supremely dangerous lava-dunker. No way to mitigate it; your opponent's figure just dies. There are various ways to get around this, the most notable is limiting it to same-level. Thematically, it doesn't feel right that the beetle and grab it with its pincers without even attacking. Then what does it use to attack with later, or why does that need a roll if the toss doesn't? Otar's Gore and Toss can work as a good model here, perhaps with the auto-wound chance tacked on since the repositioning alone isn't nearly as useful without bonding.
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  #4485  
Old March 25th, 2021, 05:30 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I'm down with another Insect Hero.

The design is in a good direction, but a few things feel off. "Sentinel" doesn't feel right as the class. It doesn't really match how real beetles act or how they would play given this design. "Bold" isn't terrible, but it doesn't feel quite right either. Good old "Wild" feels like a better fit. The Move value feels too low to make it useful; it feels like without free activations it won't be worth order markers, but I could be wrong.

Pincer Toss is a fine idea, but there are a few things I don't like about it. First, this thing is a supremely dangerous lava-dunker. No way to mitigate it; your opponent's figure just dies. There are various ways to get around this, the most notable is limiting it to same-level. Thematically, it doesn't feel right that the beetle and grab it with its pincers without even attacking. Then what does it use to attack with later, or why does that need a roll if the toss doesn't? Otar's Gore and Toss can work as a good model here, perhaps with the auto-wound chance tacked on since the repositioning alone isn't nearly as useful without bonding.
Please read Pincer toss again, this is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to lava dunk with unless you roll a natural 20. The wording is the same as the Warforged reposition ability I'm pretty sure.

Thematically when these bugs toss eachother (either flipping things over in front of ir tossing them overhead) they will attack the now overturned bug. Bugs have armor on top, typically soft underbellies. That was my thought anyways, they don't grab and crunch eachother they actually just throw.


The bug tosses something over its head, might wound it and then attacks down onto it if not as you can steal height from a figure this way.

The Bees in c3v that are currently shrouded in mystery were capable of bonding with an insect hero.

Sentinel and Bold can definitely change. It is worth noting that this bug can pull your own figures out of danger. If you take height next to one of your own engaged figures you can reposition them without the chance to wound. It's a rather complex depth of uses.

4 move could definitely change, I wasnt sure how flying would be with higher move on a multi-use figure.
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  #4486  
Old March 25th, 2021, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Please read Pincer toss again, this is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to lava dunk with unless you roll a natural 20. The wording is the same as the Warforged reposition ability I'm pretty sure.
Oh yeah, that's right, it's a switch. I forgot that because switching is very non-intuitive for a toss power. I'm against it thematically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Thematically when these bugs toss eachother (either flipping things over in front of ir tossing them overhead) they will attack the now overturned bug. Bugs have armor on top, typically soft underbellies. That was my thought anyways, they don't grab and crunch eachother they actually just throw.
That's a fun visual, but it doesn't come through in the power. Switching positions doesn't emulate that, not does the auto-wound. A move plus defense reduction Net Trip-style, perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
The Bees in c3v that are currently shrouded in mystery were capable of bonding with an insect hero.
Yeah, and that will probably stick. So just a reposition is pretty useful even when restricted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
It is worth noting that this bug can pull your own figures out of danger. If you take height next to one of your own engaged figures you can reposition them without the chance to wound. It's a rather complex depth of uses.
That is pretty neat. Though not as useful as it sounds, honestly.
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  #4487  
Old March 25th, 2021, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Okey dokey, thanks for the feedback.
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  #4488  
Old March 25th, 2021, 11:26 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I already gave some feedback on this one in your thread, but I have some other thoughts to share here.

Wild feels fantastic for the miniature so long as it does not result in Death Chaser bonding. They only bond with Large Wild Heroes, so if the mini is medium-sized, then I think that it'll work. If it doesn't, then I think that something other than Bold would fit better, but I'm drawing a blank for an alternative suggestion right now.

I don't think that Pincer Toss works thematically. I'm fine with the Beetle "tossing" another figure, but outright switching places doesn't pair well with that in my mind. I know that you've expressed disinterest in Otar's Gore and Toss in your own thread, but I think that it does a better job of catching the visual of a stag beetle tossing something away. Alternatively, there are several other mechanics that you could use to prevent lava dunking but still have a "tossing" power.

Based off of the speed, stats, and price, I feel like this unit isn't at a point where I would take it without some kind of synergy (I'm not sure if you intend for it to work with the upcoming bees or not; if so, then it's a neat synergy, but the other insects typically have another army or utility that they can fulfill, too, and I'm wary of a unit that I would only take with a currently unreleased design). I think that aiming for a slightly lower price than the 80 point range would shore up a lot of these concerns, though that obviously depends a lot on what mechanic you would decide to replace Pincer Toss with. If you did go for Gore and Toss and dropped the price, for example, then they'd still need to feel unique from Otar despite having a different synergy net.
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