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View Poll Results: Which ent-tree is the most oak-ay? (choose 3)
Wood Elemental 10 26.32%
Darkwood Treant Guardian 4 10.53%
Wooden Revenant 8 21.05%
Birch Sentry 0 0%
Enchanted Tree 11 28.95%
Timber Custodian 8 21.05%
Jubokko 6 15.79%
Tsuri Oni 3 7.89%
Elder Oak 6 15.79%
Wise Oak 5 13.16%
Wood Golem 0 0%
Gnarl of Elder 12 31.58%
Entrean the Elder 4 10.53%
Oakshadow 9 23.68%
Arboris 14 36.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #85  
Old April 17th, 2018, 04:56 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

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Originally Posted by The Dewk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I really think he should start the game with a marker or two. I fear my opponent will just put all 3 OM's on one of his cards in R1 and send one figure across the board to kill him in the start zone before he can defend himself. 2 defense and 1 life is pretty easy to take out. Isamu, Cyprien, and Zelrig are all particularly scary counters.
He will technically start the game with one, as he receives one at the beginning of each round. Totally worth it if my opponent wants to put their Zelrig or Cyprien in a compromising situation for 95 points.
Ahh, I missed that then. For some reason I was thinking it was at the end of each round he received a marker. Too many designs to digest all at once I guess. I would have voted for it had I realized you started the game with 1 marker.
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  #86  
Old April 17th, 2018, 05:03 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

Congrats Astroking!! And a good job to everyone else who participated! There were a ton of good ideas and if treant minis weren't $30 bucks a pop I'd try all of them out! (Eventually...)
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  #87  
Old April 17th, 2018, 05:57 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

In case it's not clear to anyone, my entry was the Enchanted Tree.

The criticisms of it seem to fall under two main headings: it doesn't follow established norms and it's too strong for its points. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I disagree on both counts

Technically, I agree with the first criticism. If this were nominated for the SoV, I'd vote against it.

Where I disagree is that this is a bad thing. This is not a custom that is designed to be added to the canon. I guess people can dislike non-canon-suitable customs, just as I have a dislike of the Uncommon Hero mechanic, but that strikes me as very limiting as a reason in itself.

I don't think anything is unclear or ambiguous. (I guess changing the name of the bonding, as someone suggested, might help clarity a little. "Nearby Feylund Hero Bonding"? "Limited Feylund Hero Bonding"? The "Strategic" qualifier that some cards use doesn't seem to fit well.)

On the second, I don't think people have thought through enough what you need to do to get any value from the tree beyond being an extra figure to take out at some point.

The bonding is much less potent a power than usual for a couple of reasons. First, the limit on the distance. You're not getting a 5pt commander because after the first activation of each hero you probably can't use them again with tree order markers unless you're deploying a forest. This costs more points and is also risky as it'll be relatively easy to cut a hero off from his bonding supply.

Second, it's effectively more like the Minions' "nonding": you can usually do little to nothing on a tree turn, so that's not a source of much value (unlike the typical bonders).

If you just draft 1 at 5pts, you're getting a bit of cover in the start zone for your endgame units, and some slight flexibility in initial deployment of your Feylund heroes, and then one more unit to (easily) destroy. That's not worth much. Even if it's worth, say, 10pts I don't think it's a game-breaking (or even better than a B on the power ranking) discrepancy.

I think the sweet spot for them is probably around seven of these. Beyond that, you might struggle to get them all on the board, but that's probably enough to have a solid base to direct your troops from.

I imagine there will be tension between extending the reach of the forest with putting them next to each other for a little defensive boost (and more reliable bonding in the vicinity).

The one worry I do have with playstyle is that they encourage/allow a turtling strategy: plant lots in your startzone and have Syvarris and Sonlen pinging away with, say, Brunak or Bram to whack figures that get too close. I don't think that this is a top tier army by any means though.

The build where they make the most difference might be the Elf Wizards. With Ulginesh they get extra reach on the activations and offer some insurance against an early assassination of him. Still, they're not as good as adding Raelin, and they work better at higher point totals (and they're, much as I've tried at various points to disprove this, a bit rubbish to start with), so I don't think there's anything to worry about.

Relatedly, I don't understand the concern about Tree x100 at 500pts. That would be a contender in worst army competitions. Taking lots of trees is not as bad as Iskra-without-Retchets or Hive-without-Marro, but it's worse than, say, Hatamoto-without-Samurai. To construct an army to lose against a pure forest, you need something that cannot reliably destroy two trees per round. So, single attackers with an attack of at most 3 are about as strong as you can get. A ton of Sahaugin Raiders? Deadeye Dan?

All of this is playtest-free theoryscaping. Maybe those saying it's undercosted are right. I'm hoping to give it a whirl and see how it plays out in a few games. If it is too cheap, I'm more inclined to rein the stats in further (drop defence one more, reduce the range on the bonding, maybe even require a roll for placement) than put it up to 10pts where I think forest armies will be completely out of the question.


Thanks to everyone who commented on it (even those of you who didn't like it and now look silly for being so utterly wrong ). I'm not sure what the workshopping will look like, but I'll definitely be adding this to my own custom thread and welcome further chat there, even if nothing else emerges.

And extra thanks to Dr. Goomonkey for running the competition. I've had a brilliant time from the moment I started thinking about powers until Necroblade showed up the conclusion of the voting (and probably beyond if the workshopping happens).
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  #88  
Old April 17th, 2018, 06:25 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1


Well met!

This is so subjective that discussion is futile. That said . . .

I voted for three entries for three separate reasons. A cool mechanic, arelica of one Id seen on screen, and mine.




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  #89  
Old April 17th, 2018, 06:28 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

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Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

Well met!

This is so subjective that discussion is futile. That said . . .

I voted for three entries for three separate reasons. A cool mechanic, arelica of one Id seen on screen, and mine.

You're... not allowed to vote for your own...


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  #90  
Old April 17th, 2018, 07:43 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

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You're... not allowed to vote for your own...
Do over!
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  #91  
Old April 17th, 2018, 08:33 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

This was my first competition and my entries were: Wise Oak and Defenders of Oak, I made some adjustments to them after the contest came to an end.
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  #92  
Old April 17th, 2018, 09:40 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

Congrats @Astroking112 ! I voted for yours. It was the one I would most want to play. Balanced for the point cost, cool mechanics. An excellent custom.
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  #93  
Old April 17th, 2018, 11:03 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

What does the custom unit: Arboris, have to make worthy of all those votes. He has 1 life for a unique hero, the overgrowth markers are like the Mezzodemons Warmongers exoskeleton markers, he has to survive a whole round before you can get another automatically. You can benefit if you have all 3 overgrowth with 3 additional dice to your attack or defense. The mezzodemon warmongers has no great benefit with their exoskeleton marker unlike the custom unit Arboris has. You make it an additional attack for every overgrowth marker so it would be 4 normal attacks or something it is your custom figure Astroking112.
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  #94  
Old April 17th, 2018, 11:09 PM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

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Originally Posted by Heroscaper 101 View Post
What does the custom unit: Arboris, have to make worthy of all those votes. He has 1 life for a unique hero, the overgrowth markers are like the Mezzodemons Warmongers exoskeleton markers, he has to survive a whole round before you can get another automatically. You can benefit if you have all 3 overgrowth with 3 additional dice to your attack or defense. The mezzodemon warmongers has no great benefit with their exoskeleton marker unlike the custom unit Arboris has. You make it an additional attack for every overgrowth marker so it would be 4 normal attacks or something it is your custom figure Astroking112.
It actually starts with a marker (because it gets one at the beginning of the first round). A few rounds in and this guy has 6 attack and 5 defense with the potential to ignore wounds.

I'm not sure he's 95 points, maybe more like 80, but I think it's a very very cool card.

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  #95  
Old April 18th, 2018, 02:18 AM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

He is good if not enough shields were rolled, Arboris can remove an overgrowth marker. It is a total of 3 markers, what someone made 4 attacks before the round ends. I made some changes to my Entries, it would be a Treant if you to page 8 of my thread.
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  #96  
Old April 18th, 2018, 03:08 AM
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Re: Springtime Custom Competition Poll - Congrats Astroking1

Thanks for the congratulations and support, everyone! It was a ton of fun to both think about how to design an Ent and to read everyone else's ideas!

I absolutely adored @The Dewk 's Wood Elemental (I've always been a sucker for a Kurrok-themed army, so the idea of another one to toy with was a treat), @ollie 's Enchanted Tree (it was a little wonky to read 5 points and Feylund becoming a bonding criterion at first, but after that I was completely onboard), and @Confred 's Entrean the Elder (I wasn't kidding when I had said that I wished I thought of moving Evergreen trees before submitting Arboris)! There were plenty of other amazing entries here, of course, but those three all stood out to me the most. Thanks to everyone for taking time to make some excellent submissions!

As for Arboris, I spent most of the design time contemplating various figures using terrain pieces to try and capture the theme of an Ent, but it wasn't really jiving for me at the time. Shortly before the deadline, I decided to think about the fundamental theme that I wanted to go for, and growth seemed like the natural choice (pun fully intented).

Arboris kind of sprang about as a result from that, because I loved the idea of a figure that was constantly growing bigger as the enemy tried to cut it down to size. I considered a lot of other approaches as well, whether it was adjusting the height of the figure based off of the markers (dropped because I figured it was far too complex and unnecessary), increasing the base movement and dropping it as Arboris grew, or even letting him outright heal himself. Ultimately, I was most fond of the simpler design using Overgrowth Markers for health and only increasing his power over time.

I also greatly appreciate all of your feedback, and I'll do my best to address everything:

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post

Arboris
Interesting abilities that require strategy to use effectively. You probably want to wait until Round 3 to activate Arboris, so he would be useful mid-game or possibly end-game.
Thanks! I agree that Arboris will be most effective when left to grow for a little bit, which leads to an ideal role as a clean-up figure. I initially contemplated requiring the placement of Order Markers on him to keep people from stalling, but this felt a little too complex and heavy-handed for my tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dewk View Post

Arboris
First off, I think he has the best name of the uniques, so points there! Secondly, the tying together of his two powers has been executed beautifully. This guy would make a very effective cleanup unit, without being OP. Theoryscaping is difficult with this guy, admittedly, and I'd like to try him out to see if he could even use a drop in points. Very tight unit overall.
The Elven style of adding "is" to the end of something proved effective!
I had considerable troubles theoryscaping him, juggling between a few different point values in this range. His reliance on markers instead of health is difficult for me to adequately price, and I didn't want to price him so high as to be unreasonable (especially with how weak he starts), but I also didn't want to ignore that he can get up to 6 attack and 5 defense. I'm a little surprised by the idea that he could be overpriced, but that would all come out in playtesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post

Arboris: While I find his powers interesting, and that he's a 1 Life Unique Hero, I worry that he's basically only for clean up. Would like to see him not stuck in one role.
A fair concern. To be fair, he does get to start off with 1 Marker, making him slightly better than a 2-life hero for the first round, but he of course is still saved for later. I personally think that he might still be useful in the middle of a game (it'll give him more of a chance to heal and grow back at least somewhat, potentially distracting the enemy), though he is admittedly designed for a specific niche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post

I also liked Arboris (who is in the lead as I write this) but ultimately thought that the two powers with a marker involved didn't do quite enough in either gameplay and theme to justify it all rather than just boosting stats and was worried that he was just too fragile. I can easily imagine changing this opinion after playing it though.
That's perfectly fair! I probably could've designed a unit that just worked with higher stats and fewer bells and whistles, but I liked the sense of growth that the markers gave. I'm also concerned that he might be too fragile, of course, but I think that this is a necessary weakness if he can become much more powerful later on. Part of his point value actually could stem from distracting the enemy and leading them to overextend early on in an attempt to kill him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post

Arboris: Crixus is pretty cool as a tree. I actually really like the balance that this guy has going on with his Overgrowth and By the Roots powers. It makes for an interesting design without feeling overly complex, IMO. I can see the worry for him only being good for cleanup, and I'm certain that's the only time I'd use him, but I'm okay with just solid cleanup figures once in a while. I think the theme and mechanics are really hitting it here.
Thanks for the kind words and the image of Crixus as a tree! I'm glad that you found the powers to be thematic and unique enough to warrant attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarBeast View Post

Regardless of who wins, I am going to be using Arboris for my GROOT figure and Elder Oak for my Tree Beard just as they are. Great job. I really think they both depict their characters to a tee. At first, I also had concerns over 3 move on the Elder, but then realized he can carry Raelin or Kelda or both or a few other combos that just need a way to both move up together but still need to hang back a bit at the same time. As for Arboris, I much prefer this with 1 life and markers vs a hero with 4 life. Similar to Migol but BETTER because it's automatic he only takes one wound.
I am Groot (I'm honored to have made a design that you found worthy of becoming Groot)! I agree that his markers are powerful, and they were definitely the biggest headscratcher when I was designing him. Against heroes, he could be an absolute nightmare in the right scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dewk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I really think he should start the game with a marker or two. I fear my opponent will just put all 3 OM's on one of his cards in R1 and send one figure across the board to kill him in the start zone before he can defend himself. 2 defense and 1 life is pretty easy to take out. Isamu, Cyprien, and Zelrig are all particularly scary counters.
He will technically start the game with one, as he receives one at the beginning of each round. Totally worth it if my opponent wants to put their Zelrig or Cyprien in a compromising situation for 95 points.
Ahh, I missed that then. For some reason I was thinking it was at the end of each round he received a marker. Too many designs to digest all at once I guess. I would have voted for it had I realized you started the game with 1 marker.
As The Dewk and superfrog mentioned, Arboris' one life can be deceiving.
My initial plan had been to add the Overgrowth Markers at the end of the round, but I was concerned about a lone ranged unit pushing too far in the first round and taking out an entire hero with one small attack. Although there is certainly value to be had in tricking the opponent into leaving Zelrig or Cyprien in poor positions, I'd rather him be at least a little bit more difficult to take down in the beginning than having 1 life and 2 defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroscaper 101 View Post

What does the custom unit: Arboris, have to make worthy of all those votes. He has 1 life for a unique hero, the overgrowth markers are like the Mezzodemons Warmongers exoskeleton markers, he has to survive a whole round before you can get another automatically. You can benefit if you have all 3 overgrowth with 3 additional dice to your attack or defense. The mezzodemon warmongers has no great benefit with their exoskeleton marker unlike the custom unit Arboris has. You make it an additional attack for every overgrowth marker so it would be 4 normal attacks or something it is your custom figure Astroking112.

...He is good if not enough shields were rolled, Arboris can remove an overgrowth marker. It is a total of 3 markers, what someone made 4 attacks before the round ends.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that one of Arboris' appeals for me when designing him was his simplicity. I stripped away anything that I didn't feel was in the heart of the design, which left him feeling much more cohesive and complete than he was during my brainstorming. His ability to ignore wounds is definitely inspired in part by the Mezzodemons and Vulcanmech Incendiborgs, despite the fact that I have yet to play with either of them.

If someone made four attacks against Arboris before the round ends, then they can very likely kill him. He may be able to ignore additional wounds, but once he starts losing his markers, his defense drops and he becomes even more likely to lose another one. It's a definite weakness, but in the meantime, you can be attacking the enemy as well and defending him. He's priced below other figures with similar stats, so even if he's focus-fired down, he makes a decent distraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post

A few rounds in and this guy has 6 attack and 5 defense with the potential to ignore wounds.

I'm not sure he's 95 points, maybe more like 80, but I think it's a very very cool card.
Thanks for the compliment! I agree that he might be a little overpriced, but I figured that it was better to overestimate than it was to underestimate. While I try to not take minute balance too far into account when looking at customs, something appearing too powerful can definitely make a different impression. Figuring out the proper range to put him in was definitely tough, since he relies so heavily on those markers.

Aaannd that's everything that my search through this thread has shown. My apologies if I missed anyone, but now it's time for me to finally get some sleep. Thanks again for the excellent time, everyone!
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