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  #25  
Old November 7th, 2018, 06:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Good call on incorporating the d20 roll there. 7+ might be a little low to start considering the potential boosts from Batman or Constantine but I dig the concept. The shuffle power for auto-wounds could prove pretty good since she can get at least 1 blank fairly consistently. I like it as it'll make you want to use her attack vs some harder to damage units like Superman, and since Superman has a weakness to magic if fits thematically too.
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  #26  
Old November 7th, 2018, 06:12 PM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Good call on incorporating the d20 roll there. 7+ might be a little low to start considering the potential boosts from Batman or Constantine but I dig the concept. The shuffle power for auto-wounds could prove pretty good since she can get at least 1 blank fairly consistently. I like it as it'll make you want to use her attack vs some harder to damage units like Superman, and since Superman has a weakness to magic if fits thematically too.
I hadn't even thought of the Superman thing but that's a great touch. It's a shame MD didn't exist when Superman was originally done. Letting Kryptonians Defense get negated by other Kryptonians and MD figures would have been awesome.

Back on track. I try not to comment on D20 numbers too early as I know that is the easiest thing to adjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #27  
Old November 7th, 2018, 06:41 PM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

I went with 7+ for the association 7 has with luck. I also think it's relatively low impact to be able to force a blank. Outside of the Flash, I can't think of anything that comes to mind where a blank becomes super good, but I could be forgetting something.

This is most of them going by the Index:

5th Dimensional Being (Mr. Mxyzptlk)
Asgardian All-Father (Odin)
BAMF! Evasion (Nightcrawler KD)
BAMF! Protection (Nightcrawler II)
Contortionist (Ragdoll)
Dimension of Darkness (Cloak)
Disorientation (Vertigo)
Frigga's Magic Blessing (Balder)
Frost Bite (Frost Giants)
Infiltrate (Kryptonian Infiltrator)
Kryptonian Defense (Kryptonians)
Lover's Fury (Maxima)
Lucky Defense (Star-Lord)
Man of Steel (Superman)
More Powerful than a Locomotive (Superman Kal-L)
Poppupian Pop (Impossible Man)
Repelling Force Field (Jocasta)
Speed Dodge (Flash)
Sword of the Holy Flame (Zauriel)
Sword of the Archangel Michael (Frankenstein)
Telepathic Directive (Martian Manhunter)
Teleportation Potion (Diablo)
The Chosen One (Buffy)
Venom Blast Stun (Spider-Man MM)
Vibranium Armor (Black Panther)
White Tiger Possession (White Tiger)

There's also Klarion's Chaotic Antics. I'd say the one shield blocks all damage and Klarion's Chaotic Antics are the 2 that stand out to me as the best. Most of the others are pretty minimal.

Not opposed to upping the roll though when we've got some data.
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  #28  
Old November 7th, 2018, 08:54 PM
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@dok @Dysole

Any thoughts on that approach? What would you value it at point wise? What concerns do you have?

Last edited by Arkham; November 7th, 2018 at 10:50 PM.
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  #29  
Old November 7th, 2018, 09:22 PM
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Quick Fly By

It seems restrained enough it shouldn't cause issues. I'm not sure if it's the best approach but I'm just doing a quick look.

~Dysole, trying to remember figures that want blanks
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  #30  
Old November 8th, 2018, 09:11 AM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
This is most of them going by the Index:

5th Dimensional Being (Mr. Mxyzptlk)
Asgardian All-Father (Odin)
BAMF! Evasion (Nightcrawler KD)
BAMF! Protection (Nightcrawler II)
Contortionist (Ragdoll)
Dimension of Darkness (Cloak)
Disorientation (Vertigo)
Frigga's Magic Blessing (Balder)
Frost Bite (Frost Giants)
Infiltrate (Kryptonian Infiltrator)
Kryptonian Defense (Kryptonians)
Lover's Fury (Maxima)
Lucky Defense (Star-Lord)
Man of Steel (Superman)
More Powerful than a Locomotive (Superman Kal-L)
Poppupian Pop (Impossible Man)
Repelling Force Field (Jocasta)
Speed Dodge (Flash)
Sword of the Holy Flame (Zauriel)
Sword of the Archangel Michael (Frankenstein)
Telepathic Directive (Martian Manhunter)
Teleportation Potion (Diablo)
The Chosen One (Buffy)
Venom Blast Stun (Spider-Man MM)
Vibranium Armor (Black Panther)
White Tiger Possession (White Tiger)

There's also Klarion's Chaotic Antics. I'd say the one shield blocks all damage and Klarion's Chaotic Antics are the 2 that stand out to me as the best. Most of the others are pretty minimal.
This is a great and helpful list! I like the modified approach here of Zatara Shuffle and the blank power. The roll can certainly be modified but the direction works and it feels magician-like.

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  #31  
Old November 8th, 2018, 10:10 AM
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Blank Inside

dok pulled my attention back here and looking at that list, the d20 roll needs to be higher as that's some very good powers it's boosting.

~Dysole, who thinks dok might be going into more detail
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  #32  
Old November 8th, 2018, 10:24 AM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

What are we thinking number wise? Bumping it up 4(20%) to 11 or higher for a 50% chance? We can also cut the aura range from 7 to 5.

Her points have yet to be determined, with this and Trap Door likely leading her points, I'm thinking mid to high 200's is what I'm comfortable with.
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  #33  
Old November 8th, 2018, 10:37 AM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Yeah this power set scares me a bit. A 70% chance of being able to call in a blank when the blank is missed is pretty significant. It's effectively almost +1.4 attack to Buffy/Zauriel/Frank and +2.1 defense for Superman/Yukio (+4 for Nightcralwer2), and almost that good for Star-Lord and other Kryptonians.

But more frightening to me are allowing Mr. Mxy to drain OMs around 85% of the time instead of half the time, or allowing Flash (Wally) to speed dodge 85% of the time instead of half the time. Balder goes from dying 50% of the time when he's wounded at 1 life to delivering an autowound a little over half the time and only dying 15% of the time. Odin+Balder+more Asgardians+Zatanna is potentially insane but probably expensive enough to not worry about. The uncommon Kryptonians (each with two different abilities she can boost) would be really good with Zatanna if Zod was better.

It's a bit of a grab-bag of figures that get a big boost, but since generalist figures Star-Lord and Martian Manhunter (I) both get a softer boost, I'm pretty sure you can make something that features several figures Zatanna boosts and make a coherent army out of it.

I'm not sure how to best manage a power like this without making it too crazy. An obvious approach, to me, would be to limit use to once a round. It's still very good then, but not really worth building your army around any more. You could probably tighten up the potential uses as well, but I'm not sure quite which boosts are important on theme here. Limiting it to uniques would take out Mxy and Odin, although that's maybe not important if it's limited in other ways.

---

The second power also has some exploitative potential. The most hilariously broken combo is Iron Patriot/Red Skull. Inflict a wound with Iron Patriot, then motivate Zatanna, then flip Zatanna with Iron Patriot to take a turn with Iron Patriot. Repeat.

Setting aside Master Motivator madness, there's also a number of ways this power could allow double turns with a single figure. A straightforward one is Ms. Marvel activating Zatanna with Avenger Attack Command, flipping with Zatanna, taking a turn, and then taking her regular turn. Martian Manhunter 2 also gets to play in this space on his JL activation turn.

So... I'd add OM reveal wording here and/or "that has not already taken a turn" wording to the hero choosing part, and add "and not take a turn with any additional figures" wording as well. I think that closes the loopholes.

---

Zatara Shuffle is very good, too, but nothing you can't easily balance for.
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  #34  
Old November 8th, 2018, 11:34 AM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Thanks for the insight!

Alright, Trap Door taken care of first:
Quote:
TRAP DOOR TELEPORTATION
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn with Zatanna, you may choose a single spaced Unique Hero you control. Immediately switch Zatanna and the chosen Hero, then take a turn with the chosen Hero, and you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control. Figures switched by Trap Door Teleportation never take any leaving engagement attacks.
And here's a couple of approaches addressing your concerns with Mistress of Magic. Limiting to Unique Heroes feels reasonable to box out Mxyzptlk at least, so I'm on board with that either approach we take.


Option A:
Shorter aura and higher d20 roll(70% success down to 40%).
Quote:
MISTRESS OF MAGIC
After Zatanna or a friendly Unique Hero within 5 spaces of Zatanna rolls combat dice, defense dice, or attack dice for a normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 13 or higher, change one die rolled to a blank.
This still combos with Constantine/Batman III well thanks to the d20 aspect, but the shorter aura means that Trap Door will be harder to utilize in combo with this as placement will be key at all times.

Option B:
Aura removed, limited to once per round.
Quote:
MISTRESS OF MAGIC
Once per round, after Zatanna or a friendly Unique Hero rolls combat dice, defense dice, or attack dice for a normal attack, you may change one die rolled to a blank.
Doesn't have the Constantine/Batman III combo, and is limited to once per round, but it is guaranteed success, simpler, and allows her more leeway on placement so Trap Door doesn't force her to stay so close with Trap Door.

---

What would people prefer? I'm probably leaning towards Option B. Constantine/Batman aside, it gives her some nice reliability with the power, it's simpler, and I'd prefer the aura not become an issue with Trap Door(switching her with someone 6 spaces away now makes her out of range). That said, I'm good either way and both sides have pros/cons.
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  #35  
Old November 8th, 2018, 12:09 PM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

@dok do each of those 2 options as well as Trap Door address your concerns? What would you value her point wise?
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  #36  
Old November 8th, 2018, 01:17 PM
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Re: The Book of Zatanna (II) (Breathing)

Trap Door seems fine there. The best uses for it now are much more tactical - use it to teleport a mobbed ranged figure or cheerleader to safety, or (much more fun) use it to teleport in someone like Liz Sherman to bomb the enemy. This seems like a really fun power and a pretty good hook for the card to build around.

No strong opinion between A and B. Just personally on theme, I like having a range, but I like that range being fairly long.

Doing the math on A - cutting it from 70% to 40% means it's boosting Speed Dodge from 52% to 72% instead of 52% to 87%. Balder is now taking a wound 30% of the time and inflicting an autowound 37% of the time, instead of 15% and 52%. Nightcrawler(2) is getting the equivalent of appx. 2.36 extra defense dice, and the boost is roughly half that for Yukio/Supes. Zauriel/Frank see a bit less than the equivalent of a +.8 attack bonus. So, still definitely a nice boost, still very significant for Wally and Kurt, but definitely a significant nerf.
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