Public Design Workshop

[Tornado]

Great post Viegon. I agree all the way. I think you mean Demon instead of Hero though.

SUMMON DEMONS
Instead of taking a turn with Blackheart, you may choose a previously destroyed Unique HeroDemon you control and roll the 20-sided die. Add 4 to your roll if the chosen hero has a Soul Marker on it's card. If you roll a 17 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from that figures card and place them on any empty space adjacent to Blackheart.

I have to stress the strength of Spawn myself. In my playtests with Blackheart, it was the power of Spawn that shined brightest. I think you may have discovered a nice way to balance that out. Thanks V and Lazy Orange.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Great post Viegon. I agree all the way. I think you mean Demon instead of Hero though.

SUMMON DEMONS
Instead of taking a turn with Blackheart, you may choose a previously destroyed Unique HeroDemon you control and roll the 20-sided die. Add 4 to your roll if the chosen hero has a Soul Marker on it's card. If you roll a 17 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from that figures card and place them on any empty space adjacent to Blackheart.

I have to stress the strength of Spawn myself. In my playtests with Blackheart, it was the power of Spawn that shined brightest. I think you may have discovered a nice way to balance that out. Thanks V and Lazy Orange.

Whoops, nice catch T-spinny.

I also realized we should probably get closer back to the original like this though:

SUMMON DEMONS
Instead of taking a turn with Blackheart, you may choose a previously destroyed Demon you control and roll the 20-sided die. Add 4 to your roll if the chosen figure has a Soul Marker on it's card. If the chosen figure is a Common or Squad figure and you roll a 6 or higher, place it on any empty space adjacent to Blackheart. If the chosen figure is a Unique Hero and you roll a 17 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from that figures card and place them on any empty space adjacent to Blackheart.

Except for the roll change and the marker addition, the only difference from the original power is that you can't revive a common/squaddie and a hero in the same turn. We could try to work that back in but it seems like it'd get messy.

[Yodaking]

There were some demon squads that went through play testing a while back and he originally could bring those back. What if we went back to that so that he would still be a demon field commander, but keep the unique hero demon summoning aspect restricted to only those souls he kills himself?

*edit* I see Viegon had a similar thought.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by darkraptor5413

Ok, so assuming I am right and the last general consensus was keep Magical Defense, Raise Attack, and Change Summon Demons to only work on figures Blackheart himself has destroyed then here is a rough draft.

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BLACKHEART
SECRET IDENTITY = None
SPECIES = Demon
UNIQUENESS = Event Hero
CLASS = Dark Lord
PERSONALITY = Fierce
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5


LIFE = 10
MOVE = 9
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 8 or 7 not sure
DEFENSE = 5


POINTS = 520


SUMMON DEMONS
Instead of taking a turn with Blackheart, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, you may choose one Unique Hero's Army Card that you control that was taken with the Stolen Souls Special Power. Remove all Wound Markers from that figures card and place them on any empty space adjacent to Blackheart.


STOLEN SOULS
If Blackheart destroys an opponent's Unique Hero figure with his normal attack, after removing that figure from the battlefield, take control of the destroyed figure and that figure's Army Card and remove any Order Markers on that Army Card. The destroyed figure now has the species of Demon instead of what's listed on its card. Stolen Souls does not affect Androids, Cyborgs, or Undead Heroes.


DECEPTIVE TELEPORTATION
After taking a turn with Blackheart, you may reveal the “X” Order Marker on this card and place Blackheart on any empty space within 8 clear sight spaces. When Blackheart starts to Teleport, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.


MAGICAL DEFENSE
When Blackheart is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Magical Defense special power, the most wounds he can take is one.


SUPER STRENGTH

lol If you were basing the 'general consensus' on my posts! I have found that my position is often not the general consensus. Plus I'm just an ally with too much web surfing time on his hands so my posts come up a lot. I'd advise you giving more weight to any thoughts the heroes and sidekicks have, you just have to be patient while waiting for their input as they are all pretty busy. My recommendation is not to worry too much about getting it perfect before the vote, I and many others will be voting for it regardless. Then it will go through this whole redesign process once it has won and the level of hero input will be greatly increased.

[Smithy Winfred]

Here's the problem though, you have to use an entire turn to attempt to respawn a demon. I think the only change you need is to up the roll to 17. That is plenty low enough to warrant a try, if you want to bring Spawn or Ghost Rider back, but still high enough that your opponent won't possibly be able to risk 3 or 4 turns just rolling for summon demons. I also think that if it turns out that that is also really powerful, we can always increase his points. I think adding markers and weird bonuses to your roll just makes it more confusing.

You could also limit each unit to being brought back one time

[darkraptor5413]

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

Here's the problem though, you have to use an entire turn to attempt to respawn a demon. I think the only change you need is to up the roll to 17. That is plenty low enough to warrant a try, if you want to bring Spawn or Ghost Rider back, but still high enough that your opponent won't possibly be able to risk 3 or 4 turns just rolling for summon demons. I also think that if it turns out that that is also really powerful, we can always increase his points. I think adding markers and weird bonuses to your roll just makes it more confusing.

You could also limit each unit to being brought back one time

I agree markers and bonuses make this just more confusing. I think limiting to each unit being only able to be brought back once is an interesting idea. I don't know about raising the roll to 17 though. Personally I feel 17 is to high how about 15 or maybe 16.

[darkraptor5413]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

lol If you were basing the 'general consensus' on my posts! I have found that my position is often not the general consensus. Plus I'm just an ally with too much web surfing time on his hands so my posts come up a lot. I'd advise you giving more weight to any thoughts the heroes and sidekicks have, you just have to be patient while waiting for their input as they are all pretty busy. My recommendation is not to worry too much about getting it perfect before the vote, I and many others will be voting for it regardless. Then it will go through this whole redesign process once it has won and the level of hero input will be greatly increased.

You may just be an ally but you have good points and I like your designs. I just want (if he gets voted in at some point), for the design to be as accurate as possible, as fun as possible, and make the most players happy as possible. Now I know in the end not everyone will be gaga for the design and that's cool, but if I can make a simple change that make a few players happier about it without sacrificing his accuracy I'll do it. So I am open to any and all input I just may disagree with some it. I mean I'm Irish, Norwegian, and German they don't come more stubborn then me. LOL

[darkraptor5413]

On a side note I found a few other designs I have done. Mister Miracle, Big Barda, Mad Hariet, Lashina, and a Doctor Strange II. I through them up on my thread were Blackheart is if anyone's interested.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

Here's the problem though, you have to use an entire turn to attempt to respawn a demon. I think the only change you need is to up the roll to 17. That is plenty low enough to warrant a try, if you want to bring Spawn or Ghost Rider back, but still high enough that your opponent won't possibly be able to risk 3 or 4 turns just rolling for summon demons. I also think that if it turns out that that is also really powerful, we can always increase his points.

The thing is, once the roll gets that high, the amount of turns needed to roll for it is too high to be worth it. At a 17, you're going to end up with Summon Demons only having an affect once or twice out of every ten games, because most people are going to average only a couple attempts per game at most. What this does is make him, in my opinion, unenjoyably swingy, and even harder to balance.

On top of that, Stolen Souls becomes an even more useless power. If you make that change, there would be no reason to leave Stolen Souls on the card. The simple fact is that as long as you can revive your own Spawn/Ghost Rider at the same roll as you revive opponent's heroes, Stolen Souls is never worth it. And with a higher role, you're even less likely to revive a Stolen Soul if you somehow find yourself in a scenario where it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

I think adding markers and weird bonuses to your roll just makes it more confusing.

Sure, it's more complex then it is now, but he's still a relatively simple design when compared to the other Event Heroes. And I personally don't see how it's confusing, tons of existing C3G designs have 20-sided die bonuses like that and markers are nothing new.

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

You could also limit each unit to being brought back one time

That is an option that could be explored, it would make him more consistent and therefore easier to balance. Plus, once you've already revived Spawn and/or Ghost Rider, it would force you to look into Stealing Souls. I personally still like the other options better, but this suggestion would be better then what we have currently.

[Yodaking]

Just curious, why does he have 9 move? Is he really super fast like Superman/Flash/Quicksilver.

[darkraptor5413]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Just curious, why does he have 9 move? Is he really super fast like Superman/Flash/Quicksilver.

I am basing his speed mainly on his Marvel Wiki Power Grid were all stats are 7 except for his intelligence and fighting skills. According to Marvel a speed rating of 7 means the character is capable of transcending the speed of light.
Also since his abilities and how to make them work are in debate here is a reference tool that may come in handy. These are his power according to Comic Vine the only thing I see not listed is his ability to steal souls which is listed on his Marvel Wiki page.

Spoiler Alert!

Blackheart is the son of Mephisto possessing vast supernatural powers and immense magical and mystical powers over reality and dimension including energy projections and manifestations, magical shields, intangibility, invisibility, control over the elements and matter as well as darkforce energy, summoning legions of demonic hordes and creatures, healing and repairing matter and living tissue, manipulating minds by telepathic means, and even telekinesis, casting illusions, teleportation, dimensional travel, and cast shape-shifting.He is believed to be omnipotent and mystically linked to the Darkforce dimension. He can steal souls without one's approval unlike his father. Blackheart is able to lift over 100 tons.

[Yodaking]

I did some quick research on the character and here is my take on the card based on everything you have already discussed. Take or discard whatever you want.

NAME = BLACKHEART
SECRET IDENTITY = None
SPECIES = Demon
UNIQUENESS = Event Hero
CLASS = Dark Lord
PERSONALITY = Fierce
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5

LIFE = 9
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 9

POINTS = ?

SUMMON DEMONS
Instead of taking a turn with Blackheart, you may attempt to summon demons. Choose a previously destroyed demon card you control and roll the 20-sided die, if you roll a 15 or higher remove any markers from that card and return the figures shown on the card to the board. Place the figures on any empty spaces within 3 clear sight spaces of Blackheart. Once a demon card you control has been chosen and successfully summoned, you may not choose that card for the Summon Demons power again.

STOLEN SOULS
If Blackheart destroys an opponent's Unique Hero figure with his normal attack, after removing that figure from the battlefield, take control of the destroyed figure and that figure's Army Card, remove any Order Markers on that Army Card. The destroyed figure now has the species of Demon instead of what's listed on its card. Stolen Souls does not affect Androids, Cyborgs, or Undead Heroes.

DECEPTIVE TELEPORTATION
After taking a turn with Blackheart, you may reveal the “X” Order Marker on this card and place Blackheart on any empty space within 8 clear sight spaces. When Blackheart starts to Teleport, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

SUPER STRENGTH

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Didn't see any explanation for the super speed on wiki so dropped that down to 6, paired up with a 6 range & 6 attack and you get that iconic set of numbers. I didn't see any real justification for the Magical Defense power, he has some magic based powers but is not a true sorcerer. If Dr. Strange moves adj. to him should he really lose all of his powers? So I gave him 9 life and 9 defense instead. That will give him Event Hero survivability, yet we all know from Deathwalker 9000 that 9 defense does whiff often enough to not be insurmountable. I also just liked the idea of using 9's here because they are upsidedown 6's.

I changed the Summon Demons power around a bit. I think it still needs some fine tuning on the exact wording but you should get the idea. With it he can summon up a squad of 2, 3, or 4 previously destroyed demons (wasn't sure how big those demon squad are or if they were common or unique so I tried to make it work for all possibilities) or any previously destroyed demon hero once. Since he can create new dead demon souls with his 2nd power, he should work well in a demon themed army while not really running out of options for demons to return to the fight. I also let the summoned demons show up a few spaces away just in case he was surrounded by common squad figures in an attempt to deny the summoning power. The only other tweak was to remove all markers from the card of a returned demon, so if they get hexed, a mutant is boosted by Sage, or some other marker related powers are in play those markers do not come back with the card. It would also mean that the Lanterns would not come back with their power ring (which is thematically correct IMO) and thus become a good counter to him since they would be returned in a weakened state.

If you wanted a 4th power, or were interesting in tweaking the teleportation power you copied from Loki, it says that he can levitate and that would be a useful ability when fighting on a city board filled with buildings. Then he could levitate up and attack on the same turn instead of having to teleport adj. at the end of one turn and then attack on the next one.

*edit* Had already worked this up before seeing that last post. Still stand by the 6 move as I don't see him being superfast as an iconic trait that he uses mid combat. I'm sure their are other figures we have made that wnet superfast at some point in their comics but fight at normal speeds.