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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books. |
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#877
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Re: The Book of Thor
They are not unnecessary. Compare Deathwalker 9000 vs. James Murphy. If you use the SA, you target a different figure (since you cannot target yourself). Since they could be adjacent to the targetted figured, they may or may not be affected by the SA as well.
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#878
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Re: The Book of Thor
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That seems to be the main difference I'm hearing here. If you target something else, or choose a straight line or target a remote space or whatever, then you might affect yourself so your text needs to exempt you. But if your effect just sort of emanates outward from the space you're on, like calling down lightning or a storm or something, then you cannot be affected by it because you are not "within X spaces" of yourself. Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#879
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Re: The Book of Thor
Some special attacks or powers would say something like "choose a target, the target and all figures adjacent to the targeted figure are affected"
So because the targeted figure could be adjacent to the figure using the special attack, the line had to be in there about not affecting the figure using the power, because he/she is adjacent to the targeted figure. In the case of Thor, if the power were to affect him, it would have said, "Thor is also affected by ......." In the case of Sue, normally a power with "clear sight" in it wouldn't affect the figure using it (unless it were an exploding type or shotgun type of thing), so in her case it had to be put in there because it was intended to affect her. Generally, if people look at the theme of a power, it's easier to see the intent. For example, Thor isn't going to give up an attack to call down lightning to possibly give himself 3 wounds. That said, you've been doing some good work here JaB in trying to clean up some of the lose ends of some text here and there. It's up to the current heroes as to when to employ them. Hand of fate is moving and the finger points to you ...Iron Maiden - The Wicker Man TUTORIAL FOR RE-BASING FIGURES 3hrs 43mins 32secs = 1242nd of 8808 overall - 1988 Honolulu Marathon |
#880
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Re: The Book of Thor
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Can somebody explain to me in detail how normal LOS, clear sight, and simple space counting change the interpretation of whether or not a figure's power can affect itself (in the absence of explicit text one way or the other)? Or, if there is no difference, then I need to understand why you, Sock, and TB have made a point of singling out clear-sight cases. Obviously I'm still missing something important. Quote:
(And actually, theme did help me conclude that you didn't want Thor hurting himself — which is why I expected that the text would say so, and somebody just forgot that bit.) Looking to theme in the context of a global rule only works for those units whose theme happens to go the right way. Some guys can safely call down lightning around themselves, while other guys' rocket shrapnel cuts up their own bodies just like everyone else's. The storyline helps us make a good guess at design intent, but it does not override the meaning of the words in the text. As has often been said, this is a game, not a simulation, and a great many things work differently than they would in RL. Unfortunately one thing that makes this challenging is that Heroscape has always had its own peculiar dialect and grammar. Some really obviously redundant things are said over and over and over again (probably trying to drive them through thick skulls of 10-year-olds who are lucky they can read at all in this day and age), while other things that should be stated plainly are left to some esoteric, not-exactly-intuitive general rule in a FAQ or a ruling in a heroscapers.com post. This current topic (the ruling that you are not within 3 spaces of yourself) seems like a perfect example: it's counter-intuitive logically and linguistically, official cards imply just the opposite, newer cards don't really offer clues that this is the special rule, and it's not in the rulebook. So in some cases, you kinda have to be an expert in the evolution of the game's own peculiar interpretation details to play some of the cards correctly. Of course nobody would start out designing the grammar for a new game to be stealthy in that way; I'd imagine it's probably just one of those things that had to evolve to that interpretation to avoid errata-ing a bunch of cards, and/or to save space on the new cards, which naturally tend to get longer and longer over time. (Although, once the decision was made to break from the Hasbro wording convention, it seems like in most cases just adding the inexpensive word "other" probably would have sufficed: "roll the 20-sided die for all other figures within 2 spaces of Thor.") Anyway, now that I understand that there is some kind of unwritten rule governing these wordings, I'll do my best to avoid raising any further false alarms. Quote:
Anyway, if I start to become more of a hindrance than a help, just let me know. As a technical editor it's natural for me to want to help, but I don't want to wear out my welcome. Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#881
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Re: The Book of Thor
LOS - a figure is never in LOS of itself, so LOS powers do not need to specify that it doesn't affect that figure. It does need to specify when it *does* affect that figure, since that's breaking the normal rule.
Clear Sight - a figure is never in clear sight of itself, so clear sight powers do not need to specify that it doesn't affect that figure. It does need to specify when it *does* affect that figure, since that's breaking the normal rule. Adjacency to Itself - a figure is never adjacent to itself, so powers that specify figures adjacent to itself do not need to specify that it doesn't affect that figure. It *does* need to specify when it does affect that figure, since that's breaking the normal rule. Within X Spaces of Itself - a figure is never "within X spaces" of itself, so "within X spaces" powers do not need to specify that it doesn't affect that figure. It *does* need to specify when it does affect that figure, since that's breaking the normal rule. Adjacency to a Targeted Figure - a figure itself *can* be adjacent to the targeted figure, so powers that affect figures adjacent to the targeted figure *do* need to specify whether the figure itself is affected or not. Within X Spaces of a Targeted Figure - a figure itself *can* be "within X spaces of a targeted figure", so powers that affect figures within X spaces of the targeted figure *do* need to specify whether the figure itself is affected or not. In Thor's case, his power falls into the "Within X Spaces of Itself" category, and therefore does not need to state that Thor is not affected. |
#882
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Re: The Book of Thor
Thanks, GreyOwl. Seems reasonably self-consistent, and I'm glad to hear that clear sight isn't any different from LOS or simple space-counting; that was really confusing me.
Fortunately there are really only two different rules here, which I'll summarize below to make sure I've really got everything in the right column. Please note that I'm filling in some additional gaps in the matrix, so anyone please let me know if you think I've made a mistake.
Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#883
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Re: The Book of Thor
Also keep in mind that what I listed is my understanding of how this works, and I'm not making an official statement on the part of C3G and how they do it. I wanted to make that clear, since this thread was for one of my designs from back when I was in C3G.
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#884
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Re: The Book of Thor
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Would you mind putting all of these in one thread so we can easily go through them and make updates? Thanks again! |
#885
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Re: The Book of Thor
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Yep, this one does need to be clear that Wrecker isn't affected by this power. My Maps: Classic; Marvel My Customs: Dr Who | Terrain | Star Wars Card Template | Repaint & Mods | Playing Card sized Cards Helmaverse | Helmaverse League International C3G Links: C3G Super Hero Draft cards | TableTop Simulator C3G Map additions | Heroscape Dice Roller |
#886
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Re: The Book of Thor
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We never know when a player may have a legitimate reason to wound his own figure, so it seems important to always know when it is or is not allowed, right? Quote:
And if so, also go gather up the other notes I've already spread around to other Books? Whatever is easiest for you all. Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#887
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Re: The Book of Thor
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However, iirc, in the case of Wrecker, he cannot be engaged when using the ability ... I can't think of a situation where he could be affected (maybe I'm remembering wrong or not thinking this through properly...high probability). But now I'll probably go back and obsessively read the card to make sure I'm remembering correctly. :rolls eyes: |
#888
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Re: The Book of Thor
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My Maps: Classic; Marvel My Customs: Dr Who | Terrain | Star Wars Card Template | Repaint & Mods | Playing Card sized Cards Helmaverse | Helmaverse League International C3G Links: C3G Super Hero Draft cards | TableTop Simulator C3G Map additions | Heroscape Dice Roller |
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