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  #193  
Old March 16th, 2019, 10:30 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
I believe this design would benefit greatly from the sort of give and take that is characteristic of a C3V design. It is my hope (and I have no reason to suspect it won't be the case) that PK, et al, are willing to proceed in that spirit, where feedback is dealt with until something approaching a consensus can be reached, followed by fairly rigorous testing.
We've got a group working on it, and have each run several playtests with more to come. Just because it's not being run through the C3V doesn't mean there isn't a process, and one that's taken Clayton from a good concept to a solid unit. I think we've got it.

Quote:
I never called it a "no-go", but the current mechanics with their somewhat rigid OM requirements (and, IMO, needlessly wonky X marker reveal mechanic) don't feel right to me. I'm not tied to the 2 activations version I laid out, either. Rather, I think this is something we should continue to workshop, because I suspect there's a better option hiding somewhere.

Semi-relatedly, I don't like how he can't work with common lawmen, and other versions of this could address that.
It's actually less rigid than 1-2-3 on Dwarves/Capuans, X on Morgrimm/Spartacus. The X reveal is necessary to allow them to actually have some teeth. If you don't have that option, it's just 1-2-3 attacks which averages 2 per turn, which isn't good enough. And then there's the problem of doing anything with other units in the army, which eats up OMs and makes the power completely without bite.

2 activations, as PK said, is hot garbage because it's just bonding which is weaker both on power level and theme. I couldn't care less if "we" made him work with Common Lawmen because it complicates the wording way too much and there are enough Uniques to make it work right now and any future Uniques only make things more interesting (and yes everyone's aware C3V is working on a Common Lawman).


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  #194  
Old March 16th, 2019, 10:47 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Most SoV submissions are the work of a single designer or at most a very small group that does their work largely in private. Other people may give feedback or suggestions but at the end of the day it comes down to the owner's call on what to submit. This is in contrast to C3V, where there are leads on a given design but they must take feedback from a pretty large group, and if they are intransigent the design won't go forward.

I believe this design would benefit greatly from the sort of give and take that is characteristic of a C3V design. It is my hope (and I have no reason to suspect it won't be the case) that PK, et al, are willing to proceed in that spirit, where feedback is dealt with until something approaching a consensus can be reached, followed by fairly rigorous testing.
I'm not quite sure this sits well with me. If the C3V wants to produce a design in such a way that the public can provide feedback throughout the process, then I'm all for it. But the proper way to do that would be to do that from a much earlier point, rather than imposing the C3V design process on a mostly-finished unit. Additionally, it sets a strange precedent. Are SoV judges and C3V members going to have a similar response to the current Boot Camp of Valhalla unit, on the grounds that it is a community design? The C3V doesn't have a monopoly on the idea of a collaborative design process.

I expect that your intent was merely to offer a collaboration, but when taken in tandem with your design feedback it reads an awful lot like an imposition from the C3V. It's difficult to tell what parts of what you are saying are personal critiques or official C3V offers or suggestions. I hope you understand why I find that lack of clarity concerning.
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  #195  
Old March 16th, 2019, 11:02 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
I'm not quite sure this sits well with me. If the C3V wants to produce a design in such a way that the public can provide feedback throughout the process, then I'm all for it. But the proper way to do that would be to do that from a much earlier point, rather than imposing the C3V design process on a mostly-finished unit.
OK fine, let's call a spade a spade. This design, or at least the bones of it, has been a C3V concept for years.

Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?

Again, I get why this happened; this concept has been stalled for a long time. But it was actually getting momentum recently, and it's honestly a bit bewildering to have this come up now.
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  #196  
Old March 16th, 2019, 11:26 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?

Again, I get why this happened; this concept has been stalled for a long time. But it was actually getting momentum recently, and it's honestly a bit bewildering to have this come up now.
C3V squandered many chances at this concept for all those years. This is a unit the public has wanted for a long, long time. C3V took every opportunity to **** it up, they don't get to come out into the public and claim ownership over it now. **** that. Over my dead ****ing body.


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  #197  
Old March 16th, 2019, 11:32 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?
Sure ... why not? If the C3V process produces the best unit, then great! Or, if the SoV process produces the best unit, then great! If one track or the other has not been able to come to fruition for, as you say, years, then why forbid the opposite process from moving forward?

Seems like the best thing for the health of the game, and the benefit of the remaining player base, is to let all the tracks take their best shot, and see what comes of it. Ultimately, a great design is what everyone wants, regardless of whether Process A or Process B is what produces it.


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  #198  
Old March 16th, 2019, 11:43 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
I'm not quite sure this sits well with me. If the C3V wants to produce a design in such a way that the public can provide feedback throughout the process, then I'm all for it. But the proper way to do that would be to do that from a much earlier point, rather than imposing the C3V design process on a mostly-finished unit.
OK fine, let's call a spade a spade. This design, or at least the bones of it, has been a C3V concept for years.

Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?
Couldn't disagree more. There are zero drafts for lawman synergy beyond the common cowboy. I looked. It's not that any hypothetical design stalled out and got "pulled out of C3V" by me or anyone else. No such design exists, on purpose.


Every time it's brought up, it gets shot down. Jake Slaughter was supposed to be the lawman synergy. That got changed. I brought up the new western figures in the cowboy thread, no movement on there. I didn't take anything from the C3V because there wasn't anything there to take.
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  #199  
Old March 16th, 2019, 11:48 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Sam Sixkiller was designed ten years ago. C3V started working on Jake Slaughter seven years ago. They had seven years to make a ten year old design work. They chose to shoot it down at every opportunity instead. They failed. Miserably. I'm sorry their current attempt at Lawmen synergy is embarrassing by comparison with Clayton, but C3V has no right whatsoever to act like this is their property in any way, shape, or form.

If this is what the C3V/SoV has become, it's time for VC to end and be replaced with something better.


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  #200  
Old March 17th, 2019, 12:00 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I don't think anybody is claiming that there's been some major breach of C3V protocol here.

I for one am excited to see this design progress in y'all's hands.
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  #201  
Old March 17th, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I don't think anybody is claiming that there's been some major breach of C3V protocol here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
OK fine, let's call a spade a spade. This design, or at least the bones of it, has been a C3V concept for years.

Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?

Again, I get why this happened; this concept has been stalled for a long time. But it was actually getting momentum recently, and it's honestly a bit bewildering to have this come up now.


This is where such a unit started. C3V may have been trying their hand at it at some point, but it's not their property. This contains seven years of failure in the form of actively sabotaging the public's desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I for one am excited to see this design progress in y'all's hands.
As am I. It's a mechanically unique and thematically satisfying design. It might need a couple minor tweaks, but it's a lot of fun and I look forward to playing it again.

To be clear, we welcome feedback to help make Clayton the best unit he can be. But this is not C3V's custom.


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  #202  
Old March 17th, 2019, 01:19 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I don't think anybody is claiming that there's been some major breach of C3V protocol here.
Correct. There's a reason I didn't lead with that. I led with offering suggestions on design.

I brought it up the history because AYP basically called me out for meddling and (innocently, I imagine) asking why C3V would have claim on this design. The reason is because variants in this design have been being kicked around in C3V for years. He asked, I answered.

Moreover, I tried to get this design concept going again in C3V recently, and I honestly think it was going to come through this time, but I was shut down specifically because people said I shouldn't step on this design out in the public. Which... I mean, it's ironic at least, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Is it OK for a C3V design to be pulled out of C3V and submitted as an SoV unit? Honestly it seems strange to me. What are the limits to this? If I don't like the direction a C3V design is headed, can I submit a modified version of it with a different mini as a SoV submission? Is that OK?
Sure ... why not? If the C3V process produces the best unit, then great! Or, if the SoV process produces the best unit, then great!
I'll answer this in the abstract - if it was a totally wide open hey, submit anything any time, then it could lead to a lot of messy situations all the time. The collaborative development model breaks down if anyone can just pull a piece out and go it alone at any time.

Now you're not really suggesting that it would be OK for someone in C3V to just rip off an in-progress design and submit a mildly modified version for SoV. And that's not what happened here. This is a unique situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
There are zero drafts for lawman synergy beyond the common cowboy. I looked. It's not that any hypothetical design stalled out and got "pulled out of C3V" by me or anyone else. No such design exists, on purpose.

Every time it's brought up, it gets shot down. Jake Slaughter was supposed to be the lawman synergy. That got changed. I brought up the new western figures in the cowboy thread, no movement on there. I didn't take anything from the C3V because there wasn't anything there to take.
I don't know exactly when you started work on this, but the discussions were live fairly recently to get this going. Without getting too deep into the internal politics of C3V here, there's plenty of reason to believe that even though it had been shot down in the past, that wouldn't happen this time.

Now, you're free to say "too bad, don't care, they had their chance" (and NB, whose history with this fight goes way, way back, has fair reason to feel that way), but that's a far cry from saying this design doesn't have any place in C3V. You were very careful in your wording when you said the design doesn't exist, but you know full well it's in discussion.

And once again, let's call a spade a spade. If this concept can't get through C3V, then it very likely can't get through SoV, which requires Unified Fanscape Review. The reason you're pushing on submitting to SoV is the same reason I was pushing to get the concept moving again in C3V - because we all can sense that times and attitudes have shifted and this can get approved, at long last.

For my part, I have always liked the idea, always pushed for it, and am happy that things are moving. I don't think it's fair to hold the sins of C3V past against the current roster of C3V participants, who are broadly more amenable to this design. I also acknowledge that this design has roots that run even deeper than C3V's origin, the better part of a decade ago.

I also think the OM management of this design is a bit wooden and needs some re-thinking, so if you guys are willing to roll up your sleeves and do some workshopping instead of dismissing my suggestions, I'm all up for that.
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  #203  
Old March 17th, 2019, 09:11 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
I led with offering suggestions on design.
Then please feel free to continue to do so. It is welcome; see also the end of this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I brought it up the history because AYP basically called me out for meddling and (innocently, I imagine) asking why C3V would have claim on this design. The reason is because variants in this design have been being kicked around in C3V for years. He asked, I answered.

Moreover, I tried to get this design concept going again in C3V recently, and I honestly think it was going to come through this time, but I was shut down specifically because people said I shouldn't step on this design out in the public. Which... I mean, it's ironic at least, right?
I haven't looked at the C3V Lawman in a while, but if it really got shut down completely because there's a similar public design, that's just silly. This isn't the first time this has happened, and that didn't stop either unit from seeing the light of day last time. In fact I recall making a few posts hoping there was room for both Lawmen.

Also as far as I'm aware, the timing is coincidental. The right mini just happened to become available for Clayton, but a C3V design could've happened at any time in the last seven years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
If the C3V process produces the best unit, then great! Or, if the SoV process produces the best unit, then great!
This should be exactly how these two projects work in parallel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
And once again, let's call a spade a spade. If this concept can't get through C3V, then it very likely can't get through SoV, which requires Unified Fanscape Review. The reason you're pushing on submitting to SoV is the same reason I was pushing to get the concept moving again in C3V - because we all can sense that times and attitudes have shifted and this can get approved, at long last.
Again, it shouldn't matter which path a design takes to be successful. Plenty of designs have been shot down by both, but none of them should ever fail simply for lack of trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
For my part, I have always liked the idea, always pushed for it, and am happy that things are moving. I don't think it's fair to hold the sins of C3V past against the current roster of C3V participants, who are broadly more amenable to this design. I also acknowledge that this design has roots that run even deeper than C3V's origin, the better part of a decade ago.
We're at least in the same camp happy to see movement on this long-overdue addition to 'scape. We could argue about past sins and roots all day, but again this is just a case of right mini, right time, nothing more than that. My point in bringing up the C3V's history of attempts at this design is a reminder that it could've happened there at any time in the last seven years, just as a public design could've happened in that time had a suitable mini existed and someone been willing to work on/submit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I also think the OM management of this design is a bit wooden and needs some re-thinking, so if you guys are willing to roll up your sleeves and do some workshopping instead of dismissing my suggestions, I'm all up for that.
And we happen to disagree. That's not the same as dismissal. We've been through several versions of this unit and are all happy with the unique, thematic playstyle this one represents. So far, adding a "clear sight" clause to Shootout is one we're happy to adopt (and increased durability is being discussed, leaning toward 3D rather than 6L). We have yet to see a superior style of OM management we either haven't tried or haven't thought of.

If I didn't have other games in the way at the moment, I'm looking forward to playtesting Clayton some more. He's fun, he's different, and it's refreshing that he does those things without trying to push a new top-tier army.


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  #204  
Old March 17th, 2019, 09:51 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Like NB said: we’re nit closed to suggestions. This version is the result of feeedback from the last one. We’re completely open to a more “interesting” or better type of synergy/OM management, but chances are we did discuss it in the discord. This is probably the fourth major version of Clayton. A lot of them never leave the chat channel because we find problems with them in testing. Right now this works, and works really well. If you can suggest a better version, our ears are very open.

I know you feel strongly about this, dok, and that enthusiasm is something we appreciate. I will push back a little and say that, even if the C3V is more amenable to cowboy synergy now (which you’re probably right) nothing was being actively discussed.
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Dictatorbilbo's Customs- Added Speed Customs. Dictatorbilbo Custom Units & Army Cards 11 October 17th, 2009 08:45 PM
My Joke Customs and odd customs updated today :D Mort_isha28 Custom Units & Army Cards 38 November 14th, 2007 04:47 AM


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