Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[IAmBatman]

That'd be Cyborg as currently planned. Another possible issue with this approach, though, is with start zone bombers. When we have the Class-restrictions on them all, the Boom Tube approach isn't problematic. It might be when you throw Harley Quinn or Human Torch into the mix. (Competitive balance is another reason why class restrictions are great compared to open-ended bonding. Cap and the Avengers get away with it because their boosts are so generic, but if we want to do something more interesting here, and I think we do, it can be a lot more difficult with open-ended additions).

Btw, some brainstorms on Blue Beetle with this system:

NAME = BLUE BEETLE
SECRET IDENTITY = TED KORD

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = TRICKY

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 160

JUSTICE LEAGUE GADGETRY
At the start of the game, place 2 Justice League Markers on this card and set aside a Glyph Pool that includes Glyphs of Utility: First Aid, Infrared Goggles, Gask Mask, and Knockout Gas Grenade. Before moving with Blue Beetle, if there are no Equipment Glyphs on this card, you may remove a Justice League Marker from this card, then choose a Glyph from Blue Beetle’s Pool and place it either on an empty, adjacent space, or power-side up on this card. Blue Beetle can equip a glyph even if there is one other Equipment Glyph on this card, up to a maximum of 2. Blue Beetle cannot lose Equipment Glyphs by any means unless he is destroyed.

BEETLE GUN COMPRESSION EFFECT
Whenever Blue Beetle attacks a non-adjacent figure with his normal attack and rolls no skulls, you may choose up to X empty spaces in a straight line from the attacking figure and place the attacking figure on any of the chosen spaces. X is the number of attack dice that show a blank. A figure moved by this special power never takes any leaving engagement attacks and can receive any falling damage that may apply.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

A recent card design in the Outer Sanctum was limited to 4 classes and I got the impression that 5 would not be okay. I could be wrong though.

I might not have been around for that one. Any hints?

[Yodaking]

I'll send you a PM about it Bats since you can still look at the thread.

I think if you want to have a 'protector' then draft Superman I, he already does that without burning a marker. If you guys are going to push one 'open' slot, then the marker related powers will need to me kept to a minimum in usefulness or the price of the figures will increase. Burning a marker and having US Agent jump over and ruthless counterstrike someone is going to be a worth quite a bit.

[Arkham]

If it came to that, I'd prefer we dropped the open, and kept the marker burn effects actually worth it. Getting a +2 a limited amount of times vs. other options out there is quite underwhelming.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

If it came to that, I'd prefer we dropped the open, and kept the marker burn effects actually worth it. Getting a +2 a limited amount of times vs. other options out there is quite underwhelming.

Agreed. Which is why doing the class-limited ones first and developing them in their own accord makes sense to me. That way we don't have to restrict them based on open classes.

I actually think if we have an open-class giver, it might make sense that that's the only synergy benefit that card gives. What I'm thinking is that Cyborg could just give himself a marker and then his other synergy benefits, and we could co-op Maxwell Lord as a figure who just gives the one open synergy marker.

Also, in case we have to jump down to 4 Classes per card, I think a Superman 3.0 for the Justice League could be a lot of fun with powers like:

JUSTICE LEAGUE INSPIRATION
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Officer, Scientist, Warrior, or Vigilante Heroes you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice for a normal attack or defense dice against a normal attack, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to add 1 die to the roll for each adjacent figure you control with a Justice League marker on its card. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

SYMBOL OF JUSTICE
Add one to your initiative roll for each Justice League marker on this card.

[Arkham]

I like that.

I'd say with Cyborg only dishing out 1 open marker, it's not going to be broken with any bonus being given out, static or burn. Nothing on the table says a +3 one time is going to be too good, when you are spending 600 points to acquire it.

As for start zone bombers... His Boom Tube is placed at the start of the round, and anyone can use it. The marker has nothing to do with that. Giving them 10 spaces on their turn 1 instead of 6, isn't going to make a giant difference. The part where 3 people with markers that are in the start zone may move 3 spaces doesn't come until the end of the round. So that's not an issue, and only one of them is an open figure.

No other markers can be stacked onto said figure, because the marker giving power that MM and Batman have only let you re-organize ones on cards with the classes listed in their power. So Cyborgs one chosen Hero will only ever have 1. That is not an issue.

So we should be good.

Additionally, if we want a Superman involved, a Blue Beetle involved, a Fate involved etc. down the line, if there was ever a power that was wanted that was too good for an open member, just make it good enough that you need to remove 2 markers to use. Problem averted.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I'd say the Instant Death and Multiple Auto-Wounds options are the biggest concern but I included a few others. One thing I noticed from going though this is that their are a lot of D20 powers that may not be game changers with a single +3 to a roll, but may be a much better use of the power than what the class/personality members can do with it.

I don't see them being a threat to draft over other League Members in terms of the d20 roll bonus. Because the difference is still in the fact that you'd need to spend an extra amount of points just on Cyborg, and just for one person receiving one marker. Whereas if you stick with the classes, you can get 3-4 other people, and use the 5 markers freely. You could draft Batman and get MORE markers in play, and draft Firestorm, Zatanna, Green Arrow, Hal Jordan, Aquaman I and II etc. With that person getting several markers to play with, as well as Martian Manhunter and Batman respectively. So I still think the incentive and benefit is strongly favored to sticking with actual Justice League members covered, but the benefit is decent enough through the static bonuses and 1 time emergency use, to warrant actually wanting to pick up an open member. I'd say it's 70/30 in terms of usefulness, and that's a fair compromise in order to maintain the goal at hand, as well as offer up an option for an open figure to play within the synergy.

As for Psylocke and Gorgon being on the list, it's still far cheaper to draft Magneto II + Destiny to receive that +3 for the whole game. Mister Sinister benefits much more from being teamed with someone like Sage, giving a +1 static. Genis-Vell isn't a big deal. The Mask negates them on his turn, which is nice, but for far less points, you could draft just MM and Zatanna and negate them completely, on a roll of 14 or higher, plus you'd have a potential healer as well, or able to strip their markers. You'd also have more teammates in the mix.

The other auto-kills or permanent controlling figures can be painful for sure, but you also have to consider how much points are being spent on that 1 chance. Martian Manhunter won't even get to place his markers, since Scientist isn't one of his classes. So that's a bunch of wasted opportunity. So you're literally spending ~600 points on a 1 time boost of +3.

Point being, it's hardly going to be the most ideal, useful, or beneficial way to use these markers.

As for cost. I'd say we bump Cyborg up to 250-260, and try and keep Martian Manhunter at about 360-380. This would make it so the 2 together would cost 620-640, meaning anyone 400+ would be eliminated. Some of those rolls, the ones 13/14+ are already easy, so I don't see them as huge game changers. It's more than likely you'll hit that roll regardless, but yes, someone like Gamora or Karnilla would be a decent pick for Cyborg + Martian Manhunter. However, I'd still say there's better combos within the actual system in place. Martian Manhunter + Batman + Green Arrow can be quite good. -4 defense potentially 5-10 times depending on your rolls, with Batman being able to take turns freely with Green Arrow without the OM risk, is quite good.

[Arkham]

If we want to drop down to 4 classes each, I'd say we drop Officer from Martian Manhunter, and drop Protector from Batman. Officer is the overlap, so it's the most expendable as it'll still be listed on Batman's. Protector is only there for Red Tornado, who would work best with Cyborg anyways as he's an Android and can continually benefit from Cyborg's Cybernetic Engineering special being offered to his chosen hero. So we'll keep that in mind if we need to drop to 4 each. Beyond that, sticking with 5, here's the designs I suggest we move forward with initially:

Martian Manhunter 2.0:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = MARTIAN MANHUNTER II
SECRET IDENTITY = J'ONN J'ONZZ

SPECIES = MARTIAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CHAMPION
PERSONALITY = BENEVOLENT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 8
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 370

JUSTICE LEAGUE TELEPATHY
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Archer, Vigilante, Magician, Officer, or King Heroes you control. Once per turn, after a figure you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to add 3 to that roll. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

TELEPATHIC MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within 5 spaces of Martian Manhunter with a Justice League marker on it's card. All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

Batman 3.0:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BATMAN III
SECRET IDENTITY = BRUCE WAYNE

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = VIGILANTE
PERSONALITY = DRIVEN

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 250

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICAL ANALYSIS
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Champion, Warrior, Scientist, Officer, or Protector Heroes you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control, to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

FIELD ORDERS
Instead of taking a turn with Batman, you may instead take a turn with one other Unique Hero you control, within clear sight of Batman, with a Justice League marker on its card. When a figure you control with a Justice League marker on its card is destroyed, you may immediately remove any unrevealed Order Markers from that card and place them on this card.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg 2.0:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = CYBORG II
SECRET IDENTITY = VIC STONE

SPECIES = CYBORG
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = BRILLIANT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 255

JUSTICE LEAGUE COMBAT COOPERATION
At the start of the game, choose one other Unique Hero you control and place a Justice League marker on its card. Once per turn, after a figure you control takes a turn, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to take a turn with Cyborg, you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to 3 figures in your start zone with a Justice League marker on their card up to 3 spaces each, then remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android or Cyborg Unique Heroes you control with a Justice League marker on their card may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

I added a Contingency Plan to Batman's Field Orders, to further add use to having a Justice League marker on them. It places the unrevealed Order Markers on his card, so he can continue to dish out commands to others instead. I think Justice League markers should be able to be moved off of destroyed figures and placed onto figures of those classes again when moved at the end of the round, but if there's disagreement there, perhaps Batman's Field Orders could also move any Justice League markers from their cards as well, and place them on his card until the end of the round where he can then dish them out again. I'd be fine with either, but I'd prefer them to just naturally be able to moved regardless.

[Tornado]

I am not sure if this is viable but another way to make the synergy wide open would be to have a design that can change another figure's class to one of the 10.
That may be dicier than just having the open marker approach but it just pooped in my head.
It sounds like you have a lot of middle ground, which is cool. Did you ever get feedback from Sir G?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I am not sure if this is viable but another way to make the synergy wide open would be to have a design that can change another figure's class to one of the 10.
That may be dicier than just having the open marker approach but it just pooped in my head.
It sounds like you have a lot of middle ground, which is cool. Did you ever get feedback from Sir G?

I don't believe so.

Yeah, there is definitely a lot of compromise and middle ground here, that hopefully people will appreciate. This is the ultimate combination of all elements presented, and should at least give something for everyone to enjoy. Its different, its "wow", but it contains enough familiar elements to not feel alien. It contains some sweeping synergy benefits, with the Burn system encouraging you to sacrifice said benefit with a more beefed up one time /marker use. The focus remains on the Justice League core, it plays best with the Justice League core, but with Cyborg's 1 marker, 1 other person can receive static benefits being offered, as well as a 1 time Marker Burn if necessary.

As for changing the class, it wouldn't maintain the balance at play. It'd allow more markers to be placed on the figure at the end of the round, which would counteract the idea of them being more limited, thus balanced due to that limitation. It'd be like giving Invisible Woman the ability to make one person an Adventurer. That could be painful.

[japes]

I do like the direction with the always on power being important. It makes it more likely not to use the burn in larger games in order to keep the always on power with the Burn being a last ditch effort type of thing (similar to how I play with Human Torch). I also prefer the open approach to Cyborg. I also prefer the Batman with the Contingency Plan Mechanic. I think it will be more fun/useful than the order marker hub.

One "kinda" concern would actually be in smaller builds. If you have BM3, MM2 and one or two more figures you could just pile on the markers and there would no longer be any hesitation to use them up until you get down to one each.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by japes

One "kinda" concern would actually be in smaller builds. If you have BM3, MM2 and one or two more figures you could just pile on the markers and there would no longer be any hesitation to use them up until you get down to one each.

That's kind of the point though. If you draft Martian Manhunter and Batman, you could also get Aquaman I and Green Arrow. You should feel a bit more open to using the burns 3-4 times each. These burns are supposed to be used enough times to make them worth it. Helping out Aquaman's heal or Green Arrow's Skill Shot only once per game isn't really that great of a boost. Getting them each 2-3 times at least, and you're feeling like you have something special. Same with the -2 to defense. It's supposed to be usable a few times over the course of the game, but you'll struggle to want to keep at least 1 on for the static benefits as well, and may need to sacrifice it in an emergency. You may also want Martian Manhunter and Batman to have 1 just in case, depending on the game.

In larger games it'll be more spread out, and give the effect of once per game, if you choose to go that route. Or you can still stack them up. Or each round you can play how you want to play, and adjust based on your needs.

I feel that's why this system really works. With that said, the number of markers can be discussed and balanced accordingly. 5, 5, and 1 or 4, 4, and 1 is something we can figure out through actual balancing/playtesting.