Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Yay

With 4/5 votes in (since I’m not voting), that makes Turmoil our 14th WoS map!

WOOT!

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Yay

With 4/5 votes in (since I’m not voting), that makes Turmoil our 14th WoS map!

I’ll get the op updated in a few days, but the timer has now started on Hellsgate.

Congrats superfrog and Turmoil!

[1Mmirg]

Now for an unpopular vote:

Dry Season is an excellent use of a single RotV set, but it includes Raelin/dragon perches that can be quite deadly. While the map is short, allowing melee a fair shot in many cases, a strong Raelin+ranged army can do serious damage, especially if Reavers have a chance to tie up units. The central canyon also can be rough on melee units needing to make lateral movement. The glyphs are also exposed from the central height--in fact, the central height, other than some wall spaces blocked, are quite dominant on this map.

I have used this map at tourneys, but I always avoid it for championship contests. It is perhaps the best RotV map, but I think WoS maps shouldn't just be the best of a certain terrain type. I vote NO to induct Dry Season.

[superfrog]

The first posts are updated with the recent votes, and Turmoil is now in the display thread.

[superfrog]

I’d like to nominate Wingspan. It uses 1 BftU, 1 SotM, and 1 TJ, with 2 random glyphs.

Tournament Use: Utah Monthlies (September 2021, June 2022), Peoria Monthlies (October 2021, December 2021, January 2022, March 2022), OHS (VCheese #3), ScapeCon II.

Wingspan is somewhat a sequel to the newly-inducted Turmoil in that it uses 1 SotM and 1 BftU. It’s also somewhat of a sequel to The Jabberwock, which in turn is a sequel to The Borogoves, in that it uses a central shadow pool around a jungle tree. One big difference is that Wingspan’s center (and the bulk of the map) is level 2.

The four defining features of Wingspan’s gameplay in my experience are the aforementioned shadow/jungle pool, the central level 3/4 rock feature, the level 3 rock 7-hex on the right, and the level 3 swamp 2-hex on the left. Each has its strengths and gameplay tends to swing between these as development progresses. Since much of the map is level 2, pathing is strong and each of these features is attackable.

I’ve also included some feedback collected on this map from a few sources in the spoiler below. Most of it is positive, but I’ve included all the recent feedback for the sake of completion:

Spoiler Alert!

vegie: I like it more now that I've played more games on it. The perch outside the startzone gets a lot of flak, and it does define melee vs. range matchup, but there's a Fulcrum sort of dynamic where the height in the middle threaten that startzone perch well. And the middle height is much more reachable than Fulcrum's. The shadow up the middle is fun but there's not so much jungle and shadow that it feels overpowering. Probably my favorite of the new maps there [at ScapeCon II].

Sir H: Really like it overall...but that 2-hex [the level 3 swamp on the left] felt like the obvious choice to setup shop. That said, shadow jungle center and higher height in the middle does help with that. Most of my games felt fine on this map.

S1R_A: I won on this map, I lost on this map, and it was my favorite of the weekend. The jungle at the edges gives good cover to development and glyph approaches, having the max height with three hexes and nearby medium height was sufficient to challenge it. The shadow plus jungle combo in the center works well.

Vydar_XLII: The 2-hex swamp on the left of Wingspan is a problem. Q9 can get there in 5 move and I abused that.

NecroBlade: I liked it. Felt good to move around, and fewer double-defense shenannigans than its cousin [The Jabberwock, I think]. Would not be sad to continue to play on this map.

hs2010: I played 2-3 practice games on it over the past few weeks and never had any problems with it. I like it quite a bit. It’s really centered. As in, the “wings” don’t see a lot of action unless the glyphs get super contested.

[Flash_19]

Hellsgate
Before sharing my thoughts, I think it's worth pointing out (credit to @superfrog for making me aware of it) that Hellsgate was nominated to the BoV 11 years ago, and it did not make the cut. The two downvotes interestingly enough, came from current WoS judges. @1Mmirg 's vote can be found here, and @Dignan 's vote here. I find I agree with the majority of what they have stated in their reviews, though I am interested to hear if their opinions on the map have changed with time.

I expected more of this map than it delivered (largely due to Mad_Wookie's influence on mapmaking - I consider MW as among the best), though I did have reservations from the beginning.

1) I like split start zones, but I think this one takes it a bit too far with the amount of water and the placement of water between start zones. It limits development a lot more than it should imo. The problem is also aggravated by the fact that the map pulls right out of the start zone in a negative way - that side is clearly better to try and set up on, and it's the side that has the majority of the start zone. There were some things done in the design to try and slow down development on that right side, looking at that awkward road dip and battlement placement specifically, but it still is such a central focus of development.

2) I don't like how the ruins are placed in conjunction with the level four height (the seven hex piece and the opposing clump of five hexes on level four to be specific). It sets up potential stare downs in some matches that can be painful - who is going to be the first to come around the corner of the ruins and attack the opponent on height? Another key part of my dislike here is how narrow the outside edges are - that area gets bogged down so easily.

3) Climbing out of the start zone feels too burdensome to me. Flying has a large advantage here as they can get into the action very quickly.

[superfrog]

Rocky Mounds by Leaf_It

We’ve had some good discussions on this map in our WoS private spaces so this review (while definitely expressing my own thoughts) also synthesizes some thoughts from a few other judges, who may or may not have a review written in time for the deadline today. Rocky Mounds has a couple main faults that have come up in these discussions that I’ll summarize below.

1. There’s lots of places for ranged pods to set up. I’m not one to shy away from intermediate local height perches, but Rocky Mounds has a LOT of them. 16 perches in total, compared to 8 or fewer on every other WoS map. There are 4 grass perches along each side of the map and then 4 rock perches towards the center on each side. That pretty much means that no matter where you are on a map, you can send a few guys to grab height where they won’t be able to be easily countered.

2. It is very long and the road doesn’t seem to help with the length. There are 15 hexes between the start zones at all points which makes it longer than any existing WoS map. And while much of the road is straightforward and gets where you might be trying to go, the beginning/end (depending on which side of the road you are taking) gets really convoluted really fast, making it an ineffective movement booster. This issue really stacks with the first one, since melee is slowed on their closing maneuvers and range can quickly retreat to the next height perch.

3. The ruin leads to unbalanced play in the center. In my games both armies often stayed away from the center level 3/4 rock formation, but range/screen combos can really be tricky to counter when they have the leg of the ruin preventing height attacks down from level 3 to level 2. So a Nilf/Greenies army, for example, always wants that one side of the map.

Overall Rocky Mounds is a pretty good map, and I definitely haven’t played my last game on it, but I think it falls short of both of our existing WoS maps with the same/smaller terrain requirements (Aeon and Highways & Dieways). I’d like to see it revisited a little shorter than its current form and perhaps with streamlined edges to reduce the podding potential. For now, to induct.

[OEAO]

Rocky Mounds: I'm in pretty much the same place as superfrog: don't love it, don't hate it. It's a lot longer than it needs to be. The elevation is pretty much limited to yours-and-mine spaces, except for the central height. The central height works pretty well, but it's a little interesting that the road doesn't approach it at all, and that it's limited to how small it is. Some more level 3 around it could help out, with some road approaching and/or reaching level 3 (not that it has to be completely surrounded by road).

The crook of the ruin is problematic. These pictures I took show an extremely easy to set up, and extremely strong, Nilfheim pod. Just stick Raelin in the middle and you're golden.

Here's the pod with the crook in your favor:


Here's the pod with the crook not in your favor:


This is where you have to extend to if you don't have the crook in your favor:


Where does this put us? Well, the map needs some tweaks. Maybe use both ruins up top, or try to limit the effect that the crook has on protecting a screen.

Overall, not a bad map, but not what I'm looking for in a WoS map (and as superfrog said, Aeon and H&D both exist). NO to induct.

[Leaf_It]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Flash_19]

Announcement

We at WoS are excited to make an important announcement! It only took a year....

Originally Posted by OEAO

Over/under number of frogs as judges: 1.5

... But we are pleased to announce that @BiggaBullfrog is joining WoS as a judge, thereby bringing our total number of frogs up to 2! We are excited to have him on board.

Congrats, Bigga!

[caps]

Originally Posted by Flash_19

Announcement

We at WoS are excited to make an important announcement! It only took a year....

... But we are pleased to announce that @BiggaBullfrog is joining WoS as a judge, thereby bringing our total number of frogs up to 2! We are excited to have him on board.

Congrats, Bigga!

Originally Posted by Flash_19's signature

"I think you're absolutely correct in your logic and reasoning and couldn't agree more." ~BiggaBullfrog

Hmm, looks to me like a scheme to get more Flash_19 maps into WoS...

can't say I'll complain!

[superfrog]

Been a hard couple hours for me without Bigga alongside me on a judging panel. Glad that ordeal is over.