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  #49  
Old December 2nd, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Hmmmmm, time travel...

One drinks quite a lot of alcohol, passes out, then wakes up in a strange location hours and sometimes days later.
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  #50  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 03:17 AM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Wow, that's the basis for quite the epic story... Keep us informed!

And it makes me want to start posting the basis for a plot of mine for a project I'm calling Assault Strike--well, technically, it's MegaMan: Assault Strike. Although it is really only loosely based off of the old MegaMan games that fascinated me or years. The only thing Capcom could sue for would be the use of copyrighted character names (and even then, only a handful...), because everything else is the product of my own imagination, with input from a good friend.

But it has nothing to do with time travel, so I guess I shouldn't rant... However, it has a lot to do with longevity and time, so I guess mayb it should. Oh well.

All ramblings aside, keep this up!

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  #51  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 08:36 AM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post

Time travel wise nothing I can see. The only question I have is "So how did the prophecy know about Luke and what he would do?"
First off, the prophecy isn't about Luke. It is misinterpreted to be about Luke. The prophecy might be about Darth, but I'm not even sure of that at this point. The only thing I'm sure of is that the prophecy is about a time traveler that travels back in time and changes the timeline so that he is never born.

And, for now at least, the prophecy is just a prophecy made by some enlightened entity. Whoever it is didn't have any "insider information", they just predicted the future because they were awesome.

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  #52  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 09:47 AM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Neat story outline. Couple of questions:
  • Why did Luke go forward 100 years knowing that he couldn't return?
  • Why does Luke show up in Year 100 of the blue timeline if he started in the black timeline?
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  #53  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 09:59 AM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

I also love time travel KillerK. I think that number one pretty much makes the most sense. I thought of the the "The Time Machine". The new one. When he tries to go back in time to save his girlfriend, he fails because if he saved her, he would have had no reason to go back. Also those guys he got captured by were the result of him. Because he convinced Einstein to work on his theories, he invented nuclear weapons which later destroyed the moon, which created those alien things. So if they killed him, they would cease to exist. So I like that. It's a similar theory to number one. You can't change anything and it's already happened the first time around. You have to go back, because going back was what caused those events in the first place. In stargate, they go back to ancient Egypt to get a power source (A ZPM) and try not to get involved. Well they do and cause the uprising that the first movie was about. If they hadn't gone back in time, they would have never found the stargate and then never found the time machine.

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  #54  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Neat story outline. Couple of questions:
  • Why did Luke go forward 100 years knowing that he couldn't return?
My current explanation for that is Luke didn't know that he couldn't return - he was deceived by Emporer. However, Luke chalks it up to a malfunction of the machine because he trusts Emporer. I might change that though to Emporer promising to finish his invention of the backwards-traveling machine so that Luke could use it in the future. I'm not sure which one I like better, but the point is that Luke either didn't know he couldn't travel back, or assumed he would be able to thanks to new technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
  • Why does Luke show up in Year 100 of the blue timeline if he started in the black timeline?
Because of Time Travelers' Immunity. The theory states that time travelers jumps through time will be preserved regardless to changes in the timeline, thus ignoring some of the classic paradoxes. Since Luke originally appeared in Year 100, he will always appear in Year 100, even if something happens to the timeline causing him to never travel there in the first place. So, if the past changes 50 times before Year 100, creating 50 different branches of the timeline, Luke will appear in all of them. As you can see, he appears in the Green timeline as well, and would also appear in the Red timeline if I carried it out that far.

It might be slightly easier to understand it this way: All of the timelines after Year 1 (black, blue, green and red) are the future of the black timeline, they are just all alternate futures that keep being overwritten. Since Luke left before any changes were made, he will appear in each alternate future, but that version of him will only remember the most recent timeline (i.e., Green Luke won't remember appearing in the Blue timeline).

Make sense?

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  #55  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 01:36 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

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Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
4) Time is Brittle, and Time-Travelers are Immune (Chrono Trigger)

The last theory I've looked at is the same as #3, except the Grandfather Paradox is avoided entirely thanks to something unofficially dubbed Time-Travelers' Immunity. This means that, if I travel to 1940 and kill my grandfather, I will not cease to exist in 1940 even though I'll never be born in 1981. I would just continue to exist in 1940 as a being from another timeline. As soon as I arrive in 1940, the old timeline in which I was born in 1981 is discarded and replaced with a new timeline, in which I'm in 1940 and my grandfather is dead. Also, time-travelers who departed from discarded timelines will appear in new timelines. For example, say I leave today and travel to 2025. After I get there I decide to travel back to 1940 and kill my grandfather. Even though, in the new timeline, I'm never born in 1981 and never travel to the future in 2009, the version of me from the old timeline will appear in the new 2025, thanks to Time-Travelers Immunity. This theory was used in Chrono Trigger (a video game for the SNES) and was used as a major plot device.

5) Multiple Dimensions (??? Chrono Cross?)

This theory is the same as #4, except instead of just discarding the timeline, each different timeline exists simultaneously in a different dimension. Chrono Cross (the sequel to Trigger) seems to use this, but what really happens in the game remains unclear.

So, what do you think?
BAM! I'd say #5. (I love discussing time-travel and other sci-fi stuff.)

Say you go back to kill your Grandfather. What would happen?

When you try to jump back to your time, you would actually jump to another time-line(dimension) where he never existed, and so neither would you. No one would know you, since you didn't exist in that dimension. But you would still be alive, since you jumped.

And in fact in your own time you never committed the act, due to the Grandfather Paradox. All you did was open a portal to the alternate dimension were he didn't exist, and you would have no choice to go there since the act was committed.

The only way to go back to your orginal time was to go back in your new time, and prevent your grandfather from being killed. Then when you jumped forward again you would jump back to your time, in theory.

This was all my opinion, FYI.

MegaSilver
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  #56  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 03:29 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Addressing the initial question posed, I'll try to do my best to explain my thoughts without the use of images, being able to draw a few graphs would make it much easier though. Hopefully you have some background in advanced math/science, it will it easier for you to understand what I'm talking about.

When looking at the timeline from a 'big picture' perspective, I think the general timeline remains a steady thing, unchanged by time travel. Imagine the timeline were charted on a graph. If you were to pull back and look at that graph where the x-axis increments were millions of years (since the universe is billions of years old), the timeline graph would look like a straight line graph, moving steadily from left to right. The timeline is unchanged by the effects of the time travel of a single individual moving back and forth over a few hundred years. Essentially insignificant in the grand scheme of all that is time.

However if you were to zoom in on the general straight line graph that is all time, you would see that time is actually not a straight line graph at all. When the increments on the x-axis are reduced to months, years, or even decades, the time line becomes an oscillating frequency graph that follows the general trend line established by the previous straight line graph. Time becomes a fluid thing, constantly moving up and down the y-axis as it moves from left to right along the x-axis. This is where time travel can alter what the timeline looks like. A time traveler can go back in time and alter the previous motion of this oscillating graph. Instead of the previous timeline scaling down (or up) at one specific angle, his or her actions can cause the timeline to scale down (or up) at a new steeper angle, scale down (or up) at a new more gradual angle, or even change directions of the time line completely from down to up (or up to down).

The general trend line that that oscillating graph follows does not change at all though due to the actions of the time traveler. At some point further down the changed timeline, somehow, someway time manages a 'course correction' of sorts in order to keep time moving from left to right along the same overall general trend line. If the actions of the time travel caused the oscillating graft to move too far down (or up) the y-axis, future events occur to pull the timeline back towards the general trend line. Those future events might be the result of actions by the same time traveler, the actions of a different time traveler, or the unintended consequences of the changes made.

For example, if a time traveler were to go back in time and kill George Washington as a child, the movement that was the American Revolution would still occur, just a different hero would have emerged to lead the army. The USA would still exist in 2010, just instead of us thinking of George Washington as the father of our country, some guy named John Thompson would be. Perhaps John Thompson was a man the young adult George Washington killed while serving in the British Army. Since George Washington never grew up to serve, he was present at some battle to fire the fatal shot that would have killed John Thompson. John Thompson, now with a longer timeline of his own, goes on to eventually find himself the leader of the American revolution. Instead of Washington DC being our nations capitol, we would have a similar city called Thompson DC. The details in which the US won it's independence from Britian would have changed, but the 'big picture' events that have shaped our timeline would have still occurred.
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  #57  
Old December 3rd, 2009, 04:00 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
It might be slightly easier to understand it this way: All of the timelines after Year 1 (black, blue, green and red) are the future of the black timeline, they are just all alternate futures that keep being overwritten. Since Luke left before any changes were made, he will appear in each alternate future, but that version of him will only remember the most recent timeline (i.e., Green Luke won't remember appearing in the Blue timeline).
I think I get it, or at least the overall idea. What marks someone out as a time-traveller? What if in the blackline, Chewie were to invent a time-machine but later than the Emperor and the Emperor changes the timeline before Chewie gets his first time travel chance? Or, if the whole timeline is laid out and so Chewie gets to join in with the other hopping around, how do the different timelines created each time interact? What if Chewie keeps hopping around so that in every timeline a new Chewie shows up every second? Isn't that going to be disconcerting?

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  #58  
Old December 4th, 2009, 02:19 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I think I get it, or at least the overall idea. What marks someone out as a time-traveller?
The act of traveling through time in any fashion other than letting time flow normally. Any unnatural jump to the past or future will grant TTI to the traveler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
What if in the blackline, Chewie were to invent a time-machine but later than the Emperor and the Emperor changes the timeline before Chewie gets his first time travel chance?
I'm actually not sure, but I believe that Chewie would never get to travel. Once Emporer jumps back, the future of the blackline is discarded and no longer exists. This brings in a different concept I call Basic Time (or Time Error by the hardcore Chrono Trigger guys), which is one continuous line representing time from the viewpoint of an outside observer (like some kind of deity that can observe all of the time jumps). Since the Emporer's jump occurs first in Basic Time, Chewie's will be negated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
Or, if the whole timeline is laid out and so Chewie gets to join in with the other hopping around, how do the different timelines created each time interact? What if Chewie keeps hopping around so that in every timeline a new Chewie shows up every second?
The whole timeline isn't actualy laid out - I just did it above for illustrative purposes. I.e., Year 100 in the blackline never occurs, because Emporer changes the past before it has a chance to happen. This is part of the reason why Luke appears in each timeline. Year 100 in the blackline represents what would've happened had Emporer not traveled back.

However, Chewie could to a ton of jumping around, granting himself TTI and causing himself to appear all over the place, regardless of what happens in the past, as long as what happens in the past happens after he jumps according to Basic Time. If that's the case though, there's another principle I'm considering including, called the Time Bastard Principle by the hardcore Chrono Trigger fans. Time Bastard says that if a person time travels, and then the timeline is subsequently changed to prevent the travel, that person will still disappear in the new timeline at the exact point in which they originally traveled.

For example, I leave today at 5 PM to travel back to yesterday. There are now 2 of me in yesterday, KC1 (the one who traveled back to yesterday) and KC2 (the one that is from yesterday). KC1 then locks KC2 in my room, preventing KC2's time travel. However, at 5 PM today, KC2 would disappear, according to Time Bastard, leaving only KC1 in existence.

If I applied that principle, Chewie could jump all over the place, but a bunch of versions of him would keep disppearing too, until there was just one left. Confused yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
Isn't that going to be disconcerting?
Probably.

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Last edited by killercactus; December 4th, 2009 at 02:31 PM.
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  #59  
Old December 9th, 2009, 04:00 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

i think none of them!
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  #60  
Old December 9th, 2009, 05:38 PM
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Re: How Do You Think Time-Travel Works?

Got to page 3, so apologies if this has been brought up, but time itself is theoretical. It's the measurement of change, no different than inches, or liters. The rate at which things change is time. So by going forward or back in time, you're manipulating the change around you.

I propose a time machine that doesn't move you along a line in time, but moves time around you, leaving you, nd the time maching, unchanged while changing everything else. Not really a time machine any more, a machine for manipulating the fabric of reality that would make you God.

Manipulation of change would only work in a certain area around the machine though. You would have to make sure every atom and every particle of that atom was ini t's place before you did anything. You couldn't bring back a dinosaur in the desert if the water and material that made that dinosaur is somewhere in Europe, or the ocean, or both.

You would have to set up machines that could affect everything in the universe at once, So you could alter and reverse the affects of change to the point where it changed backwards. Everything would happen in rewind, and the machine would merely protect you from going backwards. Of course, the air would be in there, so you couldn't go too far back without drastic changes (a plant dies or something, but far enough back and you've already altered the timeline, beyond fixing).

Anyway, all that stuff is for moving back in time. Moving forward is easy, you just lessen the rate of change around yourself, and wait for everything else around you to change at a faster pace. This can be done by hanging out around a black hole, but I would be more interested in changing the past than the future.

Edit: forgot to mention that particles in atoms are moving through our universe at a seemingly random rate, showing up in two places at once or disappearing completely. I read somewhere that we're pretty sure they're moving in and out of our universe to a different universe, and one theory (string or M) said that gravitons were leaking out of the 11th dimension and causing a weak force, but that's just to say that if they do that, then you would have to find a way to draw them back to the way they were before, so that you could get the past exactly right.

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