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  #265  
Old November 16th, 2009, 08:55 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Why evolution is bad:





....Or really good, if you're a cultist, I guess.


Ah! According to logic.... All evolutionists are crazed cultists! I'a Cthulhu Fhtagn!

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  #266  
Old November 16th, 2009, 08:59 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Some girl was telling us about how badly she wanted to get laid, so we told her we would all remain abstinent with her, cause she was like, 15.

We decided to give our virginities names. Hers was Jigglypuff, somebody named theirs agumon, another girl tried Flying Spaghetti Monster...

This was all to say that my virginity is Cthulu. Since Cthulu is immortal, it will never go away, even after I lose it. Amanda said I should name it Cthulu for the tentacles.

And now this information is forever imprinted on your brain. Your welcome.

2013, Still alive.
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  #267  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The idea that physical laws remain unchanged (what I believe you're calling uniformatarianism) is not some philosophical assumption that underpins the the theory of evolution. It is, like everything else in science, a proposition that is put forth with some rational backing based upon the data, and is used to make testable predictions.
You must be right about us talking past one another because this is just plain wrong. Or at least it can't be applied. We know how things work in the present. My whole point is that the past is unknowable except through the interpretation of data. In order to interpret anything you need a framework within which to do so. It isn't a question of whether physical laws remain unchanged, it is whether they have ALWAYS remained unchanged. That is indeed a philosophical underpinning of Evolutionary thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Does anyone who believes in creationism honestly believe that God is incapable of creating a fossil record that's perfectly consistent with the idea of evolution?
That gets into the tricky question of who God is and what His nature is. You could certainly argue that if the fossil record is not a record of real creatures that really lived and really died then God is bearing false witness - something that He cannot do since it is against His nature. Biblically however, the fossil record seems crystal clear - the result of the Noahic flood as evidenced by billions of dead thing buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

~Aldin, who thinks everything about both sides of the aisle more or less follows pretty rationally from the sides underlying assumptions and would really like both sides to be aware of the philosophical underpinnings of their positions

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
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  #268  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Aldin, I thought the Biblical deluge myth was tossed out (by geologist, historians, scientists) years ago.


"Hahahah! You losers! I told you so!!"
~Clancampbell
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  #269  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:18 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob View Post
Aldin, I thought the Biblical deluge myth was tossed out (by geologist, historians, scientists) years ago.

It was since there is no evidence for a singular global flood (and completely fails to explain why no humans are with any of those other pesky animals like dinosaurs and such).


Quote:
Another mind blowing phenomenon, or conspiracy theory or whatever, is the Philadelphia Experiment. It's pretty cool.
You do know that's not real?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_experiment

Not that our government wouldn't try experiments like that, just the "facts' of the case contradict actual facts.

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
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  #270  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:21 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Hence why I corrected myself after the next comma, calling it a conspiracy theory. But still, it's a cool concept.

2013, Still alive.
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  #271  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Real invisibility cloaks, project Aurora, rail guns, and the real teleportation of photon's is much cooler.

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
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  #272  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:29 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

I agree. There's a book that I enjoyed, titled "Physics of the impossible" outlining that and more, and how it works. I really liked the idea of creating clear force fields for an underwater city, although I beleive that was a level 3 impossibility.

2013, Still alive.
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  #273  
Old November 16th, 2009, 09:32 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

How about a real force field?

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/t...ble-forcefield

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
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  #274  
Old November 16th, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The idea that physical laws remain unchanged (what I believe you're calling uniformatarianism) is not some philosophical assumption that underpins the the theory of evolution. It is, like everything else in science, a proposition that is put forth with some rational backing based upon the data, and is used to make testable predictions.
You must be right about us talking past one another because this is just plain wrong. Or at least it can't be applied. We know how things work in the present. My whole point is that the past is unknowable except through the interpretation of data.
And again, the past can be observed in the present day. That's what astronomy is - looking at light that's been traveling for long periods. And based on what we can see, astrophysicists make observations about how the laws of physics operated in the place we're observing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
In order to interpret anything you need a framework within which to do so. It isn't a question of whether physical laws remain unchanged, it is whether they have ALWAYS remained unchanged. That is indeed a philosophical underpinning of Evolutionary thought.
And again, my point is that this is NOT a first principle that requires assumption. It is a scientific principle of its own, with extensive backing based on observation of data. In order to dispute this, you have to go much deeper and dispute core assumptions about how we know how old the objects we see in the sky are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Does anyone who believes in creationism honestly believe that God is incapable of creating a fossil record that's perfectly consistent with the idea of evolution?
That gets into the tricky question of who God is and what His nature is. You could certainly argue that if the fossil record is not a record of real creatures that really lived and really died then God is bearing false witness - something that He cannot do since it is against His nature.
Interesting argument, although I think there's some wiggle room there given that we can't really know God's purpose in these things. But surely you see my broader point, which is that no evidence can possibly conflict with the existence of an omnipotent God.
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  #275  
Old November 16th, 2009, 11:05 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
That gets into the tricky question of who God is and what His nature is. You could certainly argue that if the fossil record is not a record of real creatures that really lived and really died then God is bearing false witness - something that He cannot do since it is against His nature.
Just though I'd cut in for a second to point something out.
If you look at the book of Job, God allows Satan to completely destroy Job's life as a test. He allowed evil to exist because good came out of it. Who's to say that he wouldn't have allowed Satan to plant evidence for a godless theory of how life came into existence, as a test of faith for believers?

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No matter your feelings towards D&D, it has divided us.
Something tells me that the cancellation, though tragic, may indeed mend that divide...
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  #276  
Old November 17th, 2009, 03:01 AM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Ummm..not all of those were bred in a lab. Many of the examples have nothing to do with labs whatsoever.

Quote:
And your previous post? Full of the "evidence" that I've already shown doesn't count towards squat according to the rules of Science. It's all biased and unobservable fossil interpretations. Like I've already said before. This is getting old..
No it doesn't count towards your made up rules of science.

EDIT: I'd still like to know one legitimate reason beyond God is lazy for why we have the genetic information for tails, Whales and Dolphins has the genetic information to make feet and legs, why Chickens have the genetic information to make teeth. These are all predicted and expected features of evolution, but make zero sense in an creationist standpoint.
And the ones that didn't? They were either messed with by the scientist outside of the lab (still the equivalent) or were sterile. No new species.

You mean the rules that say all evidence must be observable and re-observable?

Legitimate? That he is consistent? Like I've said several times before now? He uses the same information for bone structure, genetics, and laws of physics because then we are able to study and discover his amazing creations. If God decided that gravity worked backwards every third day except on leap years or teusdays and could be moved to two days whenever he felt like it, would science be much of anywhere? Or if all mammals each were born with their own unique bone structure completely unrelated to any of their parents genetics? God is consistent, He gave the universe laws to follow and sometimes those laws can do weird things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanNinja View Post
So you're saying that if it was you who discovered that the Earth was round we'd all still think it was flat? Because everyone else thought it was and you didn't believe your "massive amounts of evidence".

Say you did have those degrees though, because this seems to be your fallback, "I'm not knowledgable enough to say this and contest other scientists!" If you aren't capable of at least trying to find a way to publicize your "massive amounts of evidence" to the world (which you believe would obviously show them the light seeing as Evolution is correct), then why are you even arguing this here?
I can see what you're trying to argue, but it's not quite sound. I'll play along though.

You got me, SN. I admit. If I was a scientist in a culture of nonscientists making declarations without evidence that were completely wrong, then I would spend a few years compiling evidence. I would share my finding with trusted colleagues until I had a group of supporters. Then I would challenge the status quo.
Good for you, so you do actually believe in Evolution itself, not just what the experts say, because what the experts say doesn't matter if the evidence is wrong. (not saying Creationism is wrong, just saying that you actually believe in what you are claiming, regardless of expert knowledge)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp
If I was in a culture of extremely sophisticated scientists, like today, then I would write up my research in a research paper, and then I would submit it for review.

This is not anything like the position you are in. You're not a scientist, I assume since it seems like something you would have pointed out. And you don't have any evidence for your position.
I am not a scientist, but I do know how Science works (which actually qualifies me, but I will make no such claim to being one because I do not dig in the earth or track animals etc...) and I do know how to apply logic. And I don't have evidence because, as Bannister so kindly pointed out, God is above and outside of science, and I can cannot present any scientific proof to convince you of that. But I can use my knowledge of the scientific method and my capability of applying logic to disprove the evidence for evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp
And your B point is confusing two separate ideas.

If I was a scientist in the appropriate field, who had done the appropriate research, then I would be qualified. However, that is not what I've been saying. What I've been saying is: since my college degree is not in science, I am only going to be able to understand the topic involved up to a certain point. If I went to college to study the topic, then that point would be extended to encompass further information. If I was studying biogenesis and found that I needed more in depth knowledge of genetics, then I would have to take a high-level course in genetics and really get deep into the chemistry of it.
That's just it though, I meant it as a theoretical situation in which you did happen to have the capabilities and evidence, so that I could assess whether you believe in Evolution because you've been shown evidence, or just because they said so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp
It isn't as if you're doing more research than I am. At some point in my research I get to the lab door and they say, "Sorry, student and faculty only." In the meantime, I can read books written by the experts that are written for the layperson. And when I get to a place that is too complicated, I don't just throw out the book. Considering what I'm reading is supported by the scientific community, it's more likely that even though I can't understand it, it's still correct. (Unless it's biased --SpartanNinja)

When you look at TalkOrigins.org, look at the citations. Names of journals such as Nature or Science pop up frequently. You are arguing against the journal Nature. That's the top. In terms of being able to trust ANYONE, it doesn't get more trusted than Nature or Science. Do I need to actually read the article in Nature? No because that's not practical. It's written for graduate level scientists. If Nature or Science believes something to be a fact, then it becomes intellectually disingenuous for me to say, "Well, I'll believe it when I see it." At some point we both have to rely on experts. I just choose to rely on experts that all the other scientists see as experts. (Who may be biased --SpartanNinja)

I don't have to be sitting on the wing of the Hubble telescope to be able to safely trust that the images NASA publishes are not just Photoshopped.
(True, but is the info about it biased? --SpartanNinja)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanNinja View Post
(Putting this in a spoiler so that it's available but doesn't make my post quite so large )
Spoiler Alert!
What are you talking about?

We have posted link after link. If you pose 100 "flaws" in evolution and we post 60 links, we're not ignoring you by not posting the other 40. At some point, if you are actually interested in finding out whether evolution really is supported by the evidence, you have been given the resources to go out and find your answers.

The same worn out evidence! You mean that 10-year-old irrefutable DNA evidence. It's good enough for all the experts in the world, but non-scientist White Noise has a bone to pick with it.

I think the general problem I'm up against is that one side values evidence more than the other. Either that or your side just doesn't understand the rigorous debate that happens before scientists accept something as evidence. If you were serious about evidence then you'd be a little nervous about being on the side that has none.

However, if you feel you have been unfairly treated, please post a couple flaws you want to discuss.
And none of your 60 links explain why the illogical use of fossil evidence somehow proves anything more than the fact that the creature once existed. VV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Without assuming that processes we observe today functioned identically in the past can science say anything useful about the past?

I always find it interesting to watch people equate operational science (observable, testable, etc.) with historical science (gather data and form interpretations of data). Evolutionist scientists, for the most part, make the essentially uniformatarian assumption that the way the world works now is the way it has always worked. This is not a proveable assertion.

I reject that assertion based on an eyewitness account of events which would have caused processes to function at different rates and/or have different starting points than those currently observed. Young Earth Creationists and Uniformitarians both have fascinating mysteries that their scientists explore, but the primary difference is not one of science, but of starting assumptions.

~Aldin, predictibly
This is what I've been saying, but apparently noone took notice? As well as the fact that I've added that every bit of evidence from the past is immediately assumed to be a part of Evolution giving it no chance to be studied under a normal light. By Science's rules the evidence must be an observable phenomena, nothing from the past is observable, it is all infered, especially by biased ideas.

And to quote myself from way back on page 12...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanNinja
2) Someone said it already, but I'll say it again, "history is not a science". Science requires observable phenomena, (and don't show me how a sparrow that migrated elsewhere has a bigger beak than its ancestors, that is still a bird, still has a regular beak, and is still a sparrow. Adaptation is seperate from Evolution, something evolutionists often confuse to "prove" their point.) If one cannot observe the phenomena, then they merely have an idea.

3) Retrodictions are the MOST biased form of evidence any scientist can have. Just because someone thought "Dinosaurs with feathers will prove Evolution" doesn't mean their later discovery proves it. Say I said... that when I walk into the kitchen, if Jimmy's ball is on the ground, then he must have rolled it off the table. (A hypothesis, now to prove/disprove it) I walk into the kitchen and see that, indeed, Jimmy's ball is on the ground, I then assume that he rolled it off the table because of my bias. (Haha! My hypothesis is proven!) But in reality Jimmy hadn't been in the house at all today, and had in fact lent the ball to Susie, who in turn placed it on the floor to go play something else. Obviously what I think with that hypothesis is completely false, but noone will ever know because both Susie and Jimmy have moved far off and will never hear of my hypothesis. People may retest the idea with other balls and re-prove my hypothesis, but was my hypothesis ever true? No. Whatever we discover from the past can only ever be speculated on and never proven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannister View Post
But see that is your problem, 7 days as currently observable is well, 7 days, or if you will, 7 consecutive 24 hour periods. If, before God created the universe a day was something different than 24 hours, then you have stepped out of science and into faith. We must create assumptions about what does a "God Day" equal? Does a "God Day" equal a thousand years? A million? A billion? These answers are unknowable, unobservable and untestable.


Bannister
Although it has been pointed out already that the Hebrew term used literally meant our regular days, I want to say something... Why is it impossible to think of a "God day" if a "Mercury day" equals apprx. 176 "Earth days" and a "Jupiter day" is only 9 hrs 55 min?

Whether to believe or disbelieve, it is a wicked thing to take away menís hope.

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