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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #265  
Old March 28th, 2019, 11:53 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Forgotten Forest Road by JaesShurrig

I got lazy and forgot to post my review on this for a while. Thanks Bigga for jogging my memory, cause I've been mulling this one over.

I as well love what this super fast highway brings to the game. It makes for some crazy quick development on the map early on and is a new and unique way to use the road to speed up 6 units right out of the gates.

That said, Issues I had with this map were:

1) Dagmar as an offset to Gerda (or vice versa). I think this is the biggest imbalance. These two glyphs are not created equal, and while I love a good initiative switch, +8 to a die roll once a round does not give me the same kind of surety that +1 defense does to my units all round long (especially 3 defense units). This makes for a much more focused conflict over the defense glyph, which on an already narrow map, constricts the battleground even more.

2) As Bigga already outlined, I also noticed during my games that this map was very "one-note". It's lacks the dynamics of a map that forces players to make tough decisions or simply a variety of decisions. I also found that while the road was fast, it didn't provide the board control necessary to fight over. Namely, it leads off to the side of the map, it leads to a weaker glyph that only activates at the end of the round and it is on lower ground than the center. I found it much more advantageous to develop my units straight through and gain the middle ground than to try and take the speedy side road. This concerned me because this is the main feature of this map.

Those two things were my biggest concerns and enough to give this a
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  #266  
Old March 28th, 2019, 11:55 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Forgotten Forest Road has received 2 NAY votes and is removed from playtesting.
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  #267  
Old April 11th, 2019, 01:11 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I'm going to second Sir H here on Halcyon and vote . The map design is creative - it's a very unique way to use the terrain. LOS blockers seem to be used pretty well. However, it feels problematic with all the level 0 terrain in the middle of the board - especially with Wannok in the middle. I don't think the map needs an extensive overhaul, but I am worried about the placement of Wannok and the abundance of level 0 terrain in the middle - it feels like a death trap for melee units.
I'm curious if you would have the same feedback for Embattled Fen, which inspired this map?

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  #268  
Old April 11th, 2019, 01:27 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I'm going to second Sir H here on Halcyon and vote . The map design is creative - it's a very unique way to use the terrain. LOS blockers seem to be used pretty well. However, it feels problematic with all the level 0 terrain in the middle of the board - especially with Wannok in the middle. I don't think the map needs an extensive overhaul, but I am worried about the placement of Wannok and the abundance of level 0 terrain in the middle - it feels like a death trap for melee units.
I'm curious if you would have the same feedback for Embattled Fen, which inspired this map?
Isnt that also a deathtrap for melee units?

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  #269  
Old April 11th, 2019, 08:34 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Maybe others would disagree, but that is one of the main reasons I don’t like Embattled Fen, and have only let it into my tournament map pool once.
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  #270  
Old April 11th, 2019, 11:00 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I'm going to second Sir H here on Halcyon and vote . The map design is creative - it's a very unique way to use the terrain. LOS blockers seem to be used pretty well. However, it feels problematic with all the level 0 terrain in the middle of the board - especially with Wannok in the middle. I don't think the map needs an extensive overhaul, but I am worried about the placement of Wannok and the abundance of level 0 terrain in the middle - it feels like a death trap for melee units.
I'm curious if you would have the same feedback for Embattled Fen, which inspired this map?
The answer is definitely yes. I realize that my opinion on that map may not be popular, but I've never liked it very much for a few reasons - not just the dip in the middle. Though there is a significant difference between it and Halcyon that is important to my feedback. That is the use of road on the map - it gives melee units an opportunity to approach faster and on relatively higher ground.

There are things about your map that I like more than embattled fen. I like your use of LOS blockers - I think they increase the strategic value of the map and make it more balanced.

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  #271  
Old April 11th, 2019, 07:43 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I'm going to second Sir H here on Halcyon and vote . The map design is creative - it's a very unique way to use the terrain. LOS blockers seem to be used pretty well. However, it feels problematic with all the level 0 terrain in the middle of the board - especially with Wannok in the middle. I don't think the map needs an extensive overhaul, but I am worried about the placement of Wannok and the abundance of level 0 terrain in the middle - it feels like a death trap for melee units.
I'm curious if you would have the same feedback for Embattled Fen, which inspired this map?
The answer is definitely yes. I realize that my opinion on that map may not be popular, but I've never liked it very much for a few reasons - not just the dip in the middle. Though there is a significant difference between it and Halcyon that is important to my feedback. That is the use of road on the map - it gives melee units an opportunity to approach faster and on relatively higher ground.

There are things about your map that I like more than embattled fen. I like your use of LOS blockers - I think they increase the strategic value of the map and make it more balanced.
LoS blockers can be overrated when it comes to how range-friendly or melee-friendly a map is.

One often overlooked thing that keeps Embattled Fen from being too range-friendly is the almost complete lack of intermediate height. There's almost zero opportunities for a ranged figure to shoot down on an approaching melee figure, unless that ranged figure has reached the absolute center of the map. This makes the map reasonably melee-friendly despite the near-complete lack of LoS blockers.

Just to compare two popular BoV maps, I would consider Fossil to be more range-friendly (or less melee-friendly) than Embattled Fen, despite many more LoS blockers, because Fossil gives a ranged army the opportunity to shoot down on approaching figures a lot more often than Embattled Fen does. Even Fulcrum, with its jungle terrain, is not really much more melee friendly than Embattled Fen.
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  #272  
Old April 11th, 2019, 10:07 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_19 View Post
I'm going to second Sir H here on Halcyon and vote . The map design is creative - it's a very unique way to use the terrain. LOS blockers seem to be used pretty well. However, it feels problematic with all the level 0 terrain in the middle of the board - especially with Wannok in the middle. I don't think the map needs an extensive overhaul, but I am worried about the placement of Wannok and the abundance of level 0 terrain in the middle - it feels like a death trap for melee units.
I'm curious if you would have the same feedback for Embattled Fen, which inspired this map?
The answer is definitely yes. I realize that my opinion on that map may not be popular, but I've never liked it very much for a few reasons - not just the dip in the middle. Though there is a significant difference between it and Halcyon that is important to my feedback. That is the use of road on the map - it gives melee units an opportunity to approach faster and on relatively higher ground.

There are things about your map that I like more than embattled fen. I like your use of LOS blockers - I think they increase the strategic value of the map and make it more balanced.
LoS blockers can be overrated when it comes to how range-friendly or melee-friendly a map is.

One often overlooked thing that keeps Embattled Fen from being too range-friendly is the almost complete lack of intermediate height. There's almost zero opportunities for a ranged figure to shoot down on an approaching melee figure, unless that ranged figure has reached the absolute center of the map. This makes the map reasonably melee-friendly despite the near-complete lack of LoS blockers.

Just to compare two popular BoV maps, I would consider Fossil to be more range-friendly (or less melee-friendly) than Embattled Fen, despite many more LoS blockers, because Fossil gives a ranged army the opportunity to shoot down on approaching figures a lot more often than Embattled Fen does. Even Fulcrum, with its jungle terrain, is not really much more melee friendly than Embattled Fen.
Solid points, Dok. I may not have expressed it very well, but I do feel like we expressed similar views on Embattled Fen in terms of it being more melee-friendly than other maps. The placement of height on that map is good in that you can't just pod up right next to the start zone and get ranged shots from height down on approaching units as you pointed out.

I freely admit my bias and tendency towards using LOS blockers on maps. I love the depth it can add to a map. But, as you pointed out, there are definitely ways to make maps melee-friendly without relying strictly on LOS blockers.

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  #273  
Old May 28th, 2019, 06:01 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I'd like to resubmit Pure Gold to the workshop. The biggest concern from the reviews seemed to be that the 7-hex on level 4 was too good, and easier to defend than attack, so I set out to change that. My terrain was already stretched absurdly thin, but I managed to re-jigger some things to address those concerns.

Here's a summary of the changes:
1. The 7-hex height has been replaced with a 2-hex. Both of these hexes are adjacent to the road, and so they are much easier to attack.

2. The part of the map between the level 4 heights has been entirely filled with shadow.

3. Thanks to Flash's helpful suggestion, I replaced the level 0 shadow under the bridge with water, and moved those two shadow spaces to the other side of the map to replace some of the cover of the 3-hex shadow bases.

4. The rock outcrops were each moved one hex. This creates a few pinch points, but I think it's not too bad.

5. The treasure glyph between the center start spaces is now on a shadow space.

6. Deployment towards the Wannok side is now a bit easier, with a level 2 space added over on that side.
I've also left a note in the build instructions clarifying that Medium 4 and Medium 5 figures should be able to fit under the bridge.

Pure Gold revised build instructions. It (still) uses 2 BftU and 1 RttFF, with 3 random treasure glyphs and Wannok.



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  #274  
Old May 28th, 2019, 11:08 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I already liked it before and these changes just make it better. to review.
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  #275  
Old May 29th, 2019, 01:18 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I agree. to review Pure Gold.

EDIT: @BiggaBullfrog and @Nomad - wanted to make sure you saw superfrog's resubmission

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Last edited by Flash_19; May 29th, 2019 at 01:16 PM.
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  #276  
Old May 29th, 2019, 06:19 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

to review Pure Gold. I like the changes.
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