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  #2593  
Old June 20th, 2018, 04:56 PM
Tai-Pan Tai-Pan is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I would like to look at this custom again. I had submitted something similar a while back and made some changes.











The figures are from the first Master Set of Arena of the Planeswalkers.



Custom Notes:
Jinn Nasha (from Arabic and Hebrew words for approx. spirit) is an illusionist who packs a punch with his double attack. His true strength, however, lies in using Illusions to confuse his opponents and launch surprise attacks.


Illusions are a standalone squad that have little (but still some) use without Jinn Nasha. They have no hit zones to make them impossible to hit from range, no defense to make them as simple as a whiff of smoke to dispel, but a low attack of 2 that can let them cause a little bit of damage.


The true highlight of this design are the illusion powers. If Jinn Nasha is attacked, there is a 50% chance that it is not the illusion master, represented by switching his location with an Illusion, which will usually be immediatly destroyed by the attack. If an Illusion is attacked, there is a 25% chance that it is not an illusion, but the illusion master himself, and the figures are switched and Jinn Nasha takes the attack. The powers really make it feel like a game of "find the pea under the thimble".





Play feeling:

I played two games with Jinn Nasha this week and he brings something unprecedented to the HeroScape table with some beautiful miniatures that a lot of us probably already have. Moving him up, you keep him a little further back and generally spread out the Illusions, making it possible for him to swap to one of three totally different positions on the board. It's nice to leave an Illusion within striking range of enemy figures, but possibly somewhere where it won't get attacked (only possible by engaged figures, making this somewhat easier). Once an Illusion is in place, Jinn takes it's place and leaps into action. When the enemy retaliates, he oftentimes disappears to a rear position and allows an Illusion to be destroyed. This often causes the opponent to lose a couple of attacks, as they were probably trying to catch him and hit him hard, especially with squads. A good strategy against Jinn is to target his Illusions, depriving him of hiding places. 25% of the time, it will hit an unsuspecting Jinn instead of the Illusion, but destroying the Illusions deprives him of his ability to disappear. That is also interesting because everytime he disappears, it will cost him one of his 3 illusions. Illusions can be replenished if Jinn can make kills, also an interesting mechanic because his Illusions pop up next to him, up to 2 at a time. Being there means they won't be able to help him disappear to a much safer spot until a little later, but sometimes this can be used to block for him. Thematically, it also feels like when Jinn goes on the attack, he multiplies images of himself in the attack, maybe even as the method of his attack, and afterwards these Illusions can move about and abroad.



I don't know if it is possible to convey playing this guy through text. My recommendation is to get him out and give him a spin. He has one of the most fun designs I have ever played on a HeroScape figure, custom or official or the unofficial continuations. I believe Valhalla needs Jinn Nasha!


Jugger

It's like football with swords or LARPing without the geeky stuff. In other words, it's awesomely perfect!

Last edited by Tai-Pan; June 20th, 2018 at 05:14 PM.
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  #2594  
Old June 20th, 2018, 05:05 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Wow this is an interesting set of cards.

I can't really get a good theoryscape handle on it. My biggest concern is his possibly massive threat range.

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  #2595  
Old June 20th, 2018, 06:06 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Very cool and unique design.

I will say though that I paused on the Recurring Illusions power. I immediately wondered why it mattered that he destroyed a figure to create a new illusion. Something just feels off about that thematically, though it appears mechanically interesting. Wouldn't an illusionist be able to conjure illusions without having to kill something off?

Last edited by bmon; June 20th, 2018 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Clarity
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  #2596  
Old June 20th, 2018, 06:26 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Similarly to bmon, I'm struggling to buy the theme entirely.

Two smaller things that also occur to me. Currently, Recurring Illusions seems to be on the wrong card: it reads much more like Jinn Nasha's power than the illusions'. More generally (and this might mitigate the last point), rather than naming Jinn Nasha on the Illusion card, why not go for Unique Illusionist or something that leaves open space for more illusionists?

Something else that might help (and I haven't thought this through, so it might make other stuff worse) would be if you moved Recurring Illusions to Jinn Nasha's card and the movement/activation power to the illusions' card. You'd need to tweak it of course, but I bet you could maintain the overall feel and gameplay aspects that you want.
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  #2597  
Old June 20th, 2018, 06:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Certainly an interesting design. My gut reaction is that you're aiming too high with the design in terms of power/points. It's basically a 180pt unit (though it is possible to take turns with the illusions), so that's a big chunk of your army. I can't help but feel a unit like this would rather sit in the 140pt range or lower.

It's a little strange to me that the Illusions remain even after Jinn is killed. Adding in a 6th power to fix that does feel a bit like an overload, though.
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  #2598  
Old June 21st, 2018, 12:27 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I love the flavor and direction of this guy--it reminds me a little bit of C3G's Mysterio and Mysterio Holograms, which is probably my favorite design that I've seen there--and he seems like a wonderful interpretation of an Illusionist!

Like others have said, I do see a few potential problems, though. I completely agree with @ollie that Recurring Illusions should be on Jinn's card, and the movement bonding should be shifted to the squad if needed to compensate. That would also serve another concern of mine, which is that letting Jinn move "all Illusions you control up to 5 spaces" could really restrict the design space for future illusion units from the Arena sets.

I also agree with @bmon : why does Jinn have to kill a unit to create another illusion? It feels too much like the zombies to me, and if something has to die for an illusion to be summoned, then I think it makes more sense to activate when your own units are destroyed (personally, I'm fond of either being able to revive one automatically with Jace or via a D20 roll).

I also believe that Jinn's design is more suited to have a ranged attack than a melee one, since he can use the illusions to distract and tie down opponents (I also don't see an illusionist brawling opponents up close thematically), but Double Attack with a strong base attack could also be interesting.

Finally, I also think that @Scytale has a very strong point: at essentially 180 points, Jinn is practically forced to be a centerpiece in most army sizes. Either dropping the price or leaving the room open for more illusions to work well with him is a good idea.
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  #2599  
Old June 21st, 2018, 04:35 AM
Tai-Pan Tai-Pan is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmon View Post
I will say though that I paused on the Recurring Illusions power. I immediately wondered why it mattered that he destroyed a figure to create a new illusion. Something just feels off about that thematically, though it appears mechanically interesting. Wouldn't an illusionist be able to conjure illusions without having to kill something off?

Thematically, you may be right. Thematically, it could be reinterpreted as a kind of Nightcrawleresque or Pokemon Double-Team type attack, wherein the attack itself causes the appearance of an Illusion. Mechanically, it was the safest decision. Making it possible to respawn Illusions without attacking leads to boring battles where he blips in, fights until the Illusions are gone and blips far away to respawn the Illusions. And what are other options? D20 to spawn? That is kind of standard, and not terribly exciting, IMO. Making him have to destroy a figure not only helps him focus on squads moreso than heroes, but also makes him the kind of figure that gains momentum as he succeeds (killing a figure regenerates his defense mechanism), but if he fails (to destroy), his game is off and his Illusions won't be working so well.



I don't know, that's my pitch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Similarly to bmon, I'm struggling to buy the theme entirely.

I can only recommend trying it. And usually that is the kind of thing I wouldn't say because it feels like a shameless plug, but in this case, even I as the designer couldn't wrap my mind around the theoryscape of it. Once it hit the table, I was amazed at how thematic and cool it felt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Two smaller things that also occur to me. Currently, Recurring Illusions seems to be on the wrong card.

I agree that it fits better on the other one. I had done that to keep the cards simple, but maybe a switch and a 3:1 power ration is necessary.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
More generally (and this might mitigate the last point), rather than naming Jinn Nasha on the Illusion card, why not go for Unique Illusionist or something that leaves open space for more illusionists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That would also serve another concern of mine, which is that letting Jinn move "all Illusions you control up to 5 spaces" could really restrict the design space for future illusion units from the Arena sets.

Making the bonding looser to incorporate future Illusionists and Illusions might be an option, but I wonder if making the design that open to expansion would limit what is possible with this design. As Scytale said, it's basically just one figure, self-contained and on two cards.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Certainly an interesting design. My gut reaction is that you're aiming too high with the design in terms of power/points. It's basically a 180pt unit (though it is possible to take turns with the illusions), so that's a big chunk of your army. I can't help but feel a unit like this would rather sit in the 140pt range or lower.

It's a little strange to me that the Illusions remain even after Jinn is killed. Adding in a 6th power to fix that does feel a bit like an overload, though.

Powerwise I have had him play at 200 and it's been about 50/50 win/lose in a 500 pts setting. If he misses a roll for Just an Illusion, he can quickly take damage, but if the Illusion powers keep working for him, he can be a Cyprien-sized nightmare (who also weighs in at 195 points with his cheerleader who has little reason for existence beyond her boost for him when used with him). Cyprien regenerates by killing and healing wounds and has potential to take out two figures at a time, Jinn regenerates his Illusions, which let him shrug off massive attacks (get wasted on his illusions while he is transported to safety) and Jinn has a simpler double attack, which has some strengths and some weaknesses compared to Cyprien's Chilling Touch. Cyprien flies with 8 move, Jinn can get to any space within 5 spaces of any of up to 4 figures.

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  #2600  
Old June 21st, 2018, 11:38 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That would also serve another concern of mine, which is that letting Jinn move "all Illusions you control up to 5 spaces" could really restrict the design space for future illusion units from the Arena sets.

Making the bonding looser to incorporate future Illusionists and Illusions might be an option, but I wonder if making the design that open to expansion would limit what is possible with this design. As Scytale said, it's basically just one figure, self-contained and on two cards.
I was actually saying that moving the movement bonding to the Deadly Illusions instead of Jinn makes it more restrictive, which is a good thing in case anyone else ever wants to make an Illusion unit from Arena. In my opinion, the movement bonding either needs to be reduced to only affect these Deadly Illusions or to only affect any 3 Illusions that you control.

There are a lot of "Illusion" figures in the various Arena sets from what I remember, and I think it would be a shame to put a lock on those. Outside of being able to move all Illusions that a player controls 5 spaces, I think that Jinn's abilities are broad enough (switching with any Illusion and being able to revive them) to not pose a huge problem. I just think that the current movement bonding could pose a big concern in the future.

I'm also still not buying the theme of an Illusionist killing figures to revive his illusions (momentum-based units are great, but I don't think it makes as much sense for a tricky magician relying on smoke and mirrors to get around). We've also seen plenty of kill-to-revive things in the past, so it feels a little less unique to me than some other method might. I haven't played with it, so I can't speak for the gameplay value, but I'm still having a hard time buying the theme.
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  #2601  
Old June 21st, 2018, 12:35 PM
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Kinseth Kinseth is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@Tai-Pan

My thoughts

Give the illusions 2 defense - Don't see why they should die so quickly, they feel "Real".
Simplify the power sets.

Jinn Nasha
-Change range to 4.
-Double Attack
-Master of Illusions(Leave as is), change to 4 spaces.
-Recurring Illusion

Illusions
-Change Def to 2
-Illusion Power (bullet it out like Cyprien)

"When an Illusion you control or Jinn Nasha is attacked, roll the 20 sided die."
  • If the defending figure is Jinn Nasha and a 1-5 is rolled, nothing happens. If it is a 6-20, switch an Illusion and Jinn Nasha. That attack now targets an Illusion.
  • If the defending figure is an Illusion and a 1-5 is rolled, switch that Illusion and Jinn Nasha, that attack now targets Jinn Nasha. If a 6-20 is rolled, nothing happens.
Figures moved by Illusion power never take leaving engagement attacks.

Figment of your imagination
-If Jinn Nasha is Destroyed, destroy all Illusions you control.

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  #2602  
Old June 21st, 2018, 03:38 PM
Tai-Pan Tai-Pan is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post

I'm also still not buying the theme of an Illusionist killing figures to revive his illusions (momentum-based units are great, but I don't think it makes as much sense for a tricky magician relying on smoke and mirrors to get around).

Ever play Arena of the Planeswalkers with these figures? The power of swapping the Illusions with the Master is pulled from there.



@Kinseth , interesting ideas. I will check them out. I think Jinn Nasha becomes too powerful with Range and I think 2 defense Illusions also pushes the power up (they are already sufficiently protected with no sight zones for ranged attacks), but I'm up for trying it.

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  #2603  
Old June 21st, 2018, 03:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
...(they are already sufficiently protected with no sight zones for ranged attacks)...
I meant to comment on this last time as well. This also seems to go against the theme: isn't the idea that they /do/ look attackable? Re-using Insubstantial from the Phantom Knights would do a better job for theme (but, of course, it's another power). Without adding another power, I prefer two defence and visible hitzones.
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  #2604  
Old June 21st, 2018, 03:56 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I dont like invisible hit zones.

Id be tempted to run a power of Illusion creation as automatic after taking a turn with Janna

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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