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  #37  
Old May 15th, 2015, 06:03 AM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

I'll be using these guys immediately this month, both out on Long Island in a Classic/VC game and here at home too in a mixed Supers/Classic/VC game; possibly even before you fix the wording! How better to defend a crashed Kree spaceship? Excellent work, boyos!

PS: I love it when you use Star Wars minis, since I bought almost all of them.

As for using four powers, IMHO:

"Well, they're not hard and fast rules, more a set of guidelines, really."
--Pirates of the Caribbean
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  #38  
Old May 17th, 2015, 09:53 AM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Kee-Mo-Shi's toxic skin : after attacking, you must roll the 20 sided-die...

If Kee-Mo-Shi didn't attack, she must roll the 20 sided-die anyway !

Zettian deathwing's hyper speed burst 3 : After attacking with a zettian deathwing, that deathwing may move up to an additional 3 spaces.

If Zettian deathwings didn't attack, they may move 3 additional spaces anyway...

Jurisprudence ;o)
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  #39  
Old May 17th, 2015, 01:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas View Post
PS: I love it when you use Star Wars minis, since I bought almost all of them.
Hmm... Have you ever thought about:

HoSS?

Where the Star Wars minis are actually Star Wars cards.

My Maps
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  #40  
Old May 17th, 2015, 05:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

What makes you think I don't play HOSS? I was playing those cards here when they were still in testing! Although its been a while now...
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  #41  
Old May 17th, 2015, 05:06 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Well, the Zee Dees scared everyone last Saturday, even after I'd lost my heavy hitters. Backed up by Raelin, their defense was formidable. Unfortunately, Charos in restricted terrain with a no fly glyph in effect was not their best match up.

For the next game, I expect all of the players to enjoy flying them! What better to protect a crashed Kree spaceship than robot drone bombs...
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  #42  
Old May 23rd, 2015, 03:19 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Any ETA on the .pdf version? I'm looking forward to printing these guys out.
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  #43  
Old May 23rd, 2015, 11:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Who doesn't love these flying, fast, 25 point missles?


Marro_Warlord is totally Acolarh dude...
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  #44  
Old May 25th, 2015, 10:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

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Originally Posted by redcometx View Post
Any ETA on the .pdf version? I'm looking forward to printing these guys out.
Here it is!

@Dysole , a link for you:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...o=file&id=4400

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
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  #45  
Old June 6th, 2015, 10:17 AM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
JaB, can you use an "after moving" power without moving? Yes, you can. Same story here.
I disagree. The rationale that has consistently been given for why "after moving" works is because you can technically move 0. Well, you can't "attack 0," meaning you can't "technically attack without actually attacking."
I haven't seen a good response to this valid point. Moving zero is a common concept, but this is the first time I can recall attacking zero. And are we claiming you can attack zero at no valid targets?

I also figured out what has bothered me about Kee-Mo-Shi comparison. For Kee-Mo-Shi, Toxic Skin activates adjacent which means that KMS would most likely be attacking anyway, and this means that if you don't attack you are explicitly declining to attack. Therefore, it is intuitive to me when and how Toxic Skin occurs. That is not the case with the Zettian Deathwings, who can use the 'after attack' power without even any valid attack targets in range.
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  #46  
Old June 6th, 2015, 02:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
JaB, can you use an "after moving" power without moving? Yes, you can. Same story here.
I disagree. The rationale that has consistently been given for why "after moving" works is because you can technically move 0. Well, you can't "attack 0," meaning you can't "technically attack without actually attacking."
I haven't seen a good response to this valid point. Moving zero is a common concept, but this is the first time I can recall attacking zero. And are we claiming you can attack zero at no valid targets?
If you troll some of the books you might find a stray reference to "attacking zero times" in a R&C, but nothing that seems to be clearly supported by a ruling from Hasbro or the old Rules Team.

That said, the justification for using powers "after moving" is not always that you can "move zero". That's only a needed justification for powers that trigger in the movement phase, one figure at a time, or powers that explicitly reference a figure's movement. For example, this is why Marro Drudge and Water Elementals can [swamp] water tunnel without moving normally, why a Horned Skull Brute can Barge without moving normally*, and why a Wolf of Badru can pounce without movement.**

However while you will see this rolled out as the justification for using "after moving and before attacking" powers, too, there's a more fundamental reason those powers don't require movement. That's that "after moving and before attacking", in the context of essentially all of these powers, simply refers to the juncture in the turn when it happens. Even if you don't do anything in either the movement or attack action of your turn, "after moving and before attacking" is still a moment that passes.

This also comes into play with KMS's "after attacking" power; it's the same deal. That just refers to a particular time in the turn: after attacking but before your turn ends. (This is why "must" powers in this vein, including Marro Plague, Flail Hurricane, Circuitry Overload, and Searing Intensity, can't be avoided just by declining an attack.)

* Barge into Battle is also a "after moving and before attacking" power, but it needs the move zero justification as well since it also has that "ends its movement unengaged" clause.

** a question I've never gotten a clean answer on: if a Wolf of Badru is cyberclawed during the movement phase, then a fellow Wolf destroys the cyberclawing figure during the attack phase, can the un-cyberclawed Wolf now pounce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
I also figured out what has bothered me about Kee-Mo-Shi comparison. For Kee-Mo-Shi, Toxic Skin activates adjacent which means that KMS would most likely be attacking anyway, and this means that if you don't attack you are explicitly declining to attack. Therefore, it is intuitive to me when and how Toxic Skin occurs.
Well, KMS doesn't want to toxic skin her friends (unless they are Krug or Scarcarver, maybe) so there are definitely situations where you would decline the attack and not want to roll for Toxic Skin.

The basic issue with Zettian Deathwings and HSB3 is that it can read like a figure-by-figure triggered power - like Swamp Water Tunnel but with respect to attacking instead of moving. In that context, you need a "attacking nothing" ruling to make it work. Moreover, there's some ambiguity whether the movement happens during the attack phase (in the same way that Swamp Water Tunnel happens during the movement phase) or whether it happens after the attack phase (in the same way that Barge into Battle happens after the movement phase). This is not really an issue with KMS, but it does matter when it comes to a squad.

Needless to say, there's been a lot to unpack in our internal rules discussions on this one. Thankfully, I believe we are very close to a resolution, one way or another.

Last edited by dok; June 6th, 2015 at 03:48 PM.
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  #47  
Old June 6th, 2015, 09:56 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

How about "after a Zettian Deathwing either takes or declines its opportunity to attack..."?
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  #48  
Old June 6th, 2015, 11:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

How about after taking a turn with the Zettian Deathwings, you may move the activated ZDs 3 spaces?
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