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  #25  
Old October 16th, 2018, 07:26 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Good thread. I've seen you improve a lot as a player, whilst I have, when did we first meet anyway? I think it was way back haha, back when the NE scene was ripe. Miss playing ya dude

I think there are three major things that I have learned and have helped me as a player in the competitive scene of this game:

1. Don't blame the dice, and, don't let your emotions get swayed by the dice rolls. No one can control the outcome of their dice rolls (well, maybe Hendal ), you can only control how you got to those rolls and your decisions leading to and from the rolls. Your opponent cannot control their dice, they are in the same boat. Minimizing your opponent's rolls/dice/options is what you can control and/or affect, not your opponent's luck.

2. Army building and being familiar with the meta, tournament scene, and format when doing so. Know what are the strongest armies and what armies you're likely to see. Calibrate your army as best as you can so that it has the least amount of bad matchups possible, with whatever faction or army type you're considering playing. You don't want to go into an event seeing that the maps are strong for Dragons/AE/Protectors and you don't have an answer to that. Try your best to not only know what the 'good' units are, but what units are good against what units, and if there are more uncommon units that have counterpick potential. Don't shy away from playing something unorthodox, or just because you haven't seen it before. You also don't have to play some units with what's usually played with them, for the most part. I don't have to play 4th Mass with all valiant figures. I could run a bunch of Mass with a strong hero and suicide the hero at the beginning of the match, trying to do as much damage as I can, and then the 4th become valiant. I think that's a very strong 4th Mass style. Dysole found success playing Blastatrons x4+Krug+Raelin, without any Gladiatrons, that was cool to see. This is a pretty general topic - "be good at army building" - but it is incredibly important as it is the one thing you have complete control of going into a game/tournament: what army you are playing. There's no luck involved in the decision. There's matchup luck, sure, but it is your complete decision and control to play what you play.

3. The Macro game vs. the Micro game. For awhile I didn't know how to improve any more as a player, I felt like I was doing everything right in the positions/scenarios but would still lose occasionally to players that I knew were making more mistakes than I was in those positions/scenarios. But that's the micro game. I wasn't focusing on the Macro game very much at all. What big decisions and objectives you should make going into a game and after certain midpoints. That's the Macro game.

Ex. The glyph of kelda is on the field and my opponent has Nilfheim. I have Eldgrim (or something similar). I could play very very well in the micro game but never take care of that glyph, I'm planning on using Eldgrim to boost another of my more powerful heroes and hopefully that hero can make it to the glyph before Nilf can. Even though my opponent is making a lot of mistakes, they still disengage with Nilf for a full heal and ultimately seals the game with a win. That would be poor Macro play on my part. A better plan, would be to use Eldgrim to move onto the glyph and use it so that neither my strong hero or Nilf can use it, because Nilf has a much better chance of reaching that glyph instead of my hero (let's say my hero is Gilbert or Denrick or something). That's Macro play.

Macro play is what I feel like separates a lot of players from the rest of the pack. Micro play is very important too, but there are times where you can only get so good at your decision making, regarding attack order, height gaining, pivoting in engagement, maximizing your attacks and dice in each scenario. It is very important to consider and try to be good at both.

I think #3 is the most important thing that I've learned. It really has changed the way I view the game compared to when I was younger.


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Last edited by Cleon; October 16th, 2018 at 10:03 PM.
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  #26  
Old October 16th, 2018, 08:01 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Thanks for this, OEA1.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
it is more useful for Me-Burq-sa to stay behind the wall of Romans and plink from afar while remaining safe rather than running him up onto height where he is exposed just to fire off a marginally better shot.

Maximize your range. Kite. ...


I am actually convinced now that smart play is about reducing the opportunity for variance.


...
I really appreciated this advice in particular. I did a number of things in my game against @kevindola the other night that I would not have though to do if this article hadn't been fresh in my mind. I think they upped the level of my game by at least one full notch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
3. The Macro game vs. the Micro game. For awhile I didn't know how to improve any more as a player, I felt like I was doing everything right in the positions/scenarios but would still lose occasionally to players that I knew were making more mistakes than I was in those positions/scenarios. But that's the micro game. I wasn't focusing on the Macro game very much at all. What big decisions and objectives you should make going into a game and after certain midpoints. That's the Macro game.


Ex. The glyph of kelda is on the field and my opponent has Nilfheim. I have Eldgrim (or something similar). I could play very very well in the micro game but never take care of that glyph, I'm planning on using Eldgrim to boost another of my more powerful heroes and hopefully that hero can make it to the glyph before Nilf can. Even though my opponent is making a lot of mistakes, they still disengage with Nilf for a full heal and ultimately seals the game with a win. That would be poor Macro play on my part. A better plan, would be to use Eldgrim to move onto the glyph and use it so that neither my strong hero or Nilf can use it, because Nilf has a much better chance of reaching that glyph instead of my hero (let's say my hero is Gilbert or Denrick or something). That's Macro play.

Macro play is what I feel like separates a lot of players from the rest of the pack. Micro play is very important too, but there are times where you can only get so good at your decision making, regarding attack order, height gaining, pivoting in engagement, maximizing your attacks and dice in each scenario. It is very important to consider and try to be good at both.

I think #3 is the most important thing that I've learned. It really has changed the way I view the game compared to when I was younger.
I agree. I feel like this is ultimately one of my biggest blockers from being a *great* player. I am known as a slower player and it is due to analysis paralysis. The kinds of things I tend to be analyzing are a) positioning; am I making the right choice by putting this figure here instead of the next hex over, etc. b) macro-like decisions, either on a micro level (in the a case, maybe I should be moving the figure in a different direction completely) or a truly macro level.


All that analysis paralysis, and I never feel like I end up with a decision I'm truly confident about, because I am not good at that kind of macro thinking yet. The a) part is a lot easier to get better at, particularly as you get better at the b) part.

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  #27  
Old October 16th, 2018, 08:23 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Here's one that hasn't been explicitly described yet, although I think it's similar to some, especially Cleon's Micro vs. Macro.

412. Think about the endgame first. Which units are favoured in head-to-head battles can be wildly out of line with their point costs (while everything is roughly balanced in the big picture). So planning to leave yourself a winning endgame does not necessarily reduce to killing points faster than your opponent. I learnt this as a newish player the hard way from @Bengi in a game we were, I think, both very happy with its progress until it came down to my Charos against his Marro Warriors, at which point I quickly became less happy. I don't remember the units any more, but I do remember getting the better of @loborocket using this principle (and almost nothing else) in a game soon afterwards.
On the more important issue of the interaction of punctuation and quotation marks, the question is whether a logical mess is better or worse than a visual mess. If it helps you decide, note that the visual mess is not a mess at all. People are quite capable of taking in symbols at different heights within the line. It's far more important to not jar them with illogical punctuation (unless they've had the illogical rules pounded into them for decades---while it would be rude to mention names, I fear that some among us are lost causes.)
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  #28  
Old October 16th, 2018, 08:38 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Here's one that hasn't been explicitly described yet, although I think it's similar to some, especially Cleon's Micro vs. Macro.

412. Think about the endgame first. Which units are favoured in head-to-head battles can be wildly out of line with their point costs (while everything is roughly balanced in the big picture). So planning to leave yourself a winning endgame does not necessarily reduce to killing points faster than your opponent. I learnt this as a newish player the hard way from @Bengi in a game we were, I think, both very happy with its progress until it came down to my Charos against his Marro Warriors, at which point I quickly became less happy. I don't remember the units any more, but I do remember getting the better of @loborocket using this principle (and almost nothing else) in a game soon afterwards.
I think that this is really important. In my first game at GenCon Day 2, I prioritized killing Zelrig to try and cripple my opponents army, but once the dust settled, this left me with practically only Ulginesh to take on three Nakitas. As backwards as it might've seemed, I think that I would've stood a better chance if I took the few extra attacks to clear out those pesky agents instead of focusing almost solely on stopping Zelrig. Keeping the endgame in mind (and how much it can be in your favor) is definitely big.

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  #29  
Old October 17th, 2018, 02:50 AM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I learnt this as a newish player the hard way from @Bengi in a game we were, I think, both very happy with its progress until it came down to my Charos against his Marro Warriors, at which point I quickly became less happy.
Wow, that's too funny. No lie, I ran into that exact same scenario way back in the day (07?) with on of my friends against my dad in a home game. My dad had Charos and my friend had MW and my friend won and we laughed hard about it (I wasn't very good back then, still learning the game). I believe there was another game, too, back then where my cousin had Krug and I had two Aubrian archers and I won in the end. Granted looking back on it the map was busted and on maps nowadays maybe you wouldn't run into this as much, but yeah, Krug couldn't get to them.

Holy crap, you mentioning that brought back a ton of oldschool scape memories from deep in my brain.


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  #30  
Old October 17th, 2018, 10:05 AM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
European persons such as @ollie put periods and commas outside quotation marks. The reason why is, they want their page to look like somebody left bread crumbs or something all over metaphorical kitchen floor that is their paper. It's important to their cultural heritage or something that the reader's eyes get distracted as much as possible.

Baffling, really. It explains why we left, back in the day. Following are my nerdy thoughts deeper into the weeds of why our system is better.

Spoiler Alert!
Not to derail the thread too much but doesn't it matter how you're quoting? Like if you're giving dialogue (he said, "Put the period here.") then the period goes inside, but if you're citing a portion of a quote from elsewhere (he argues for periods inside of quotes for "graphic design reasons".), then it goes outside.

I think in this thread it was mostly the first scenario. But for me I use the second scenario quite a bit.
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  #31  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:03 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Good thread. I've seen you improve a lot as a player, whilst I have, when did we first meet anyway? I think it was way back haha, back when the NE scene was ripe. Miss playing ya dude

I think there are three major things that I have learned and have helped me as a player in the competitive scene of this game:

1. Don't blame the dice, and, don't let your emotions get swayed by the dice rolls. No one can control the outcome of their dice rolls (well, maybe Hendal ), you can only control how you got to those rolls and your decisions leading to and from the rolls. Your opponent cannot control their dice, they are in the same boat. Minimizing your opponent's rolls/dice/options is what you can control and/or affect, not your opponent's luck.

2. Army building and being familiar with the meta, tournament scene, and format when doing so. Know what are the strongest armies and what armies you're likely to see. Calibrate your army as best as you can so that it has the least amount of bad matchups possible, with whatever faction or army type you're considering playing. You don't want to go into an event seeing that the maps are strong for Dragons/AE/Protectors and you don't have an answer to that. Try your best to not only know what the 'good' units are, but what units are good against what units, and if there are more uncommon units that have counterpick potential. Don't shy away from playing something unorthodox, or just because you haven't seen it before. You also don't have to play some units with what's usually played with them, for the most part. I don't have to play 4th Mass with all valiant figures. I could run a bunch of Mass with a strong hero and suicide the hero at the beginning of the match, trying to do as much damage as I can, and then the 4th become valiant. I think that's a very strong 4th Mass style. Dysole found success playing Blastatrons x4+Krug+Raelin, without any Gladiatrons, that was cool to see. This is a pretty general topic - "be good at army building" - but it is incredibly important as it is the one thing you have complete control of going into a game/tournament: what army you are playing. There's no luck involved in the decision. There's matchup luck, sure, but it is your complete decision and control to play what you play.

3. The Macro game vs. the Micro game. For awhile I didn't know how to improve any more as a player, I felt like I was doing everything right in the positions/scenarios but would still lose occasionally to players that I knew were making more mistakes than I was in those positions/scenarios. But that's the micro game. I wasn't focusing on the Macro game very much at all. What big decisions and objectives you should make going into a game and after certain midpoints. That's the Macro game.

Ex. The glyph of kelda is on the field and my opponent has Nilfheim. I have Eldgrim (or something similar). I could play very very well in the micro game but never take care of that glyph, I'm planning on using Eldgrim to boost another of my more powerful heroes and hopefully that hero can make it to the glyph before Nilf can. Even though my opponent is making a lot of mistakes, they still disengage with Nilf for a full heal and ultimately seals the game with a win. That would be poor Macro play on my part. A better plan, would be to use Eldgrim to move onto the glyph and use it so that neither my strong hero or Nilf can use it, because Nilf has a much better chance of reaching that glyph instead of my hero (let's say my hero is Gilbert or Denrick or something). That's Macro play.

Macro play is what I feel like separates a lot of players from the rest of the pack. Micro play is very important too, but there are times where you can only get so good at your decision making, regarding attack order, height gaining, pivoting in engagement, maximizing your attacks and dice in each scenario. It is very important to consider and try to be good at both.

I think #3 is the most important thing that I've learned. It really has changed the way I view the game compared to when I was younger.
I'm actually pretty sure we've never played, and I think we met at GC2012?? God I'm old haha.

Good point on macro vs micro (strategy vs tactics). The best are masters at both.
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  #32  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:09 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Thanks for this, OEA1.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
it is more useful for Me-Burq-sa to stay behind the wall of Romans and plink from afar while remaining safe rather than running him up onto height where he is exposed just to fire off a marginally better shot.

Maximize your range. Kite. ...


I am actually convinced now that smart play is about reducing the opportunity for variance.


...
I really appreciated this advice in particular. I did a number of things in my game against @kevindola the other night that I would not have though to do if this article hadn't been fresh in my mind. I think they upped the level of my game by at least one full notch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
3. The Macro game vs. the Micro game. For awhile I didn't know how to improve any more as a player, I felt like I was doing everything right in the positions/scenarios but would still lose occasionally to players that I knew were making more mistakes than I was in those positions/scenarios. But that's the micro game. I wasn't focusing on the Macro game very much at all. What big decisions and objectives you should make going into a game and after certain midpoints. That's the Macro game.


Ex. The glyph of kelda is on the field and my opponent has Nilfheim. I have Eldgrim (or something similar). I could play very very well in the micro game but never take care of that glyph, I'm planning on using Eldgrim to boost another of my more powerful heroes and hopefully that hero can make it to the glyph before Nilf can. Even though my opponent is making a lot of mistakes, they still disengage with Nilf for a full heal and ultimately seals the game with a win. That would be poor Macro play on my part. A better plan, would be to use Eldgrim to move onto the glyph and use it so that neither my strong hero or Nilf can use it, because Nilf has a much better chance of reaching that glyph instead of my hero (let's say my hero is Gilbert or Denrick or something). That's Macro play.

Macro play is what I feel like separates a lot of players from the rest of the pack. Micro play is very important too, but there are times where you can only get so good at your decision making, regarding attack order, height gaining, pivoting in engagement, maximizing your attacks and dice in each scenario. It is very important to consider and try to be good at both.

I think #3 is the most important thing that I've learned. It really has changed the way I view the game compared to when I was younger.
I agree. I feel like this is ultimately one of my biggest blockers from being a *great* player. I am known as a slower player and it is due to analysis paralysis. The kinds of things I tend to be analyzing are a) positioning; am I making the right choice by putting this figure here instead of the next hex over, etc. b) macro-like decisions, either on a micro level (in the a case, maybe I should be moving the figure in a different direction completely) or a truly macro level.


All that analysis paralysis, and I never feel like I end up with a decision I'm truly confident about, because I am not good at that kind of macro thinking yet. The a) part is a lot easier to get better at, particularly as you get better at the b) part.
Maximizing range is hugely important. I'm glad it was able to help!

An important to note that I don't really play range (except Nilfheim). All I've done to learn these things is analyze why I won X matchup this time and lost it this other time.
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  #33  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:11 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Here's one that hasn't been explicitly described yet, although I think it's similar to some, especially Cleon's Micro vs. Macro.

412. Think about the endgame first. Which units are favoured in head-to-head battles can be wildly out of line with their point costs (while everything is roughly balanced in the big picture). So planning to leave yourself a winning endgame does not necessarily reduce to killing points faster than your opponent. I learnt this as a newish player the hard way from @Bengi in a game we were, I think, both very happy with its progress until it came down to my Charos against his Marro Warriors, at which point I quickly became less happy. I don't remember the units any more, but I do remember getting the better of @loborocket using this principle (and almost nothing else) in a game soon afterwards.
On the more important issue of the interaction of punctuation and quotation marks, the question is whether a logical mess is better or worse than a visual mess. If it helps you decide, note that the visual mess is not a mess at all. People are quite capable of taking in symbols at different heights within the line. It's far more important to not jar them with illogical punctuation (unless they've had the illogical rules pounded into them for decades---while it would be rude to mention names, I fear that some among us are lost causes.)
Good point on endgame. Will include in an update, thanks!
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  #34  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:17 PM
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Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
I read this last week but somehow forgot "4. Range on Height Fallacy" when I was playing at Louisville NHSD. @NecroBlade beat me by a slim margin (two one-life heroes) but I could have won if I did not go for height and instead stay out of range, especially since I was playing with 53rd North Carolina Sharpshooters who get 9 range when they don't move. I will have to remember for next time.

I did do better at the odds fallacy - as not just playing for the one attack but also what is better in long run, but it would help for me to memorize the Probability Tables.
The Range on Height Fallacy is the biggest one for so many people. People have been trained for years to just run to height and shoot. That works sometimes. Often times it doesn't.

Take the Krav. A great player with Krav almost never is throwing more than 3 attack dice with any of them (other than on certain maps like Highways and Dieways. Instead, they're abusing the 7 range to the fullest and making the opponent try to corner them one at a time.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 01:18 PM
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3rd Option

Or they're all huddled in the middle of the bridge on Wendigo so the hydras have to attack into stealth Dodge from low ground. Not that that happened or anything.

~Dysole, who feels like that game shouldn't have been the bloodbath it was


This sentence has exactly seven words.
This sentence doesn't have exactly seven words.

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