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  #2629  
Old August 4th, 2018, 02:24 PM
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Dysole Dysole is offline
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I don't like Foulspawn as a race. It took me two read throughs to figure out exactly what the figure did. Those are the only immediate knocks I have. Everything else regarding this figure I like at first glance. I'll be back later with more after Gencon, but I like this idea a lot.

~Dysole, always happy to see atypical race and class combinations
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  #2630  
Old August 4th, 2018, 05:47 PM
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Kinseth Kinseth is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

SOA is right, big wall of text.

Id remove the special attack, it is too powerful.

Id remove sacrificing your own figures and instead focus the power on destroying an opponents figure puts a counter on him. And then the option of removing a counter to return an undead figure.

Give him range and make it a simple double attack power. You need to simpify this figure, the special attack is not needed.

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  #2631  
Old August 5th, 2018, 12:47 AM
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Son of Arathorn Son of Arathorn is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
SOA is right, big wall of text.

Id remove the special attack, it is too powerful.

Id remove sacrificing your own figures and instead focus the power on destroying an opponents figure puts a counter on him. And then the option of removing a counter to return an undead figure.

Give him range and make it a simple double attack power. You need to simpify this figure, the special attack is not needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
SOA is right, big wall of text.

Id remove the special attack, it is too powerful.

Id remove sacrificing your own figures and instead focus the power on destroying an opponents figure puts a counter on him. And then the option of removing a counter to return an undead figure.

Give him range and make it a simple double attack power. You need to simpify this figure, the special attack is not needed.
I should clarify my own position- wall of text does not equal bad custom. It does, however, leave limited room for solutions to problems that might arise in SoV testing. You could, to simplify, give him a normal ranged attack and a tweaked double attack power like this-
SOULS OF THE DEAD
Druzdhul the Soulkeeper may attack one additional time for each Valkrill figure Squad on his card. He cannot attack the same figure more than once in a turn.

Of course, that limits his use against certain builds (Rats for one) but it does cut down on the text and allows him to add dice via height advantage and attack auras/enhancements.

Of course, it’s only useful if you think the Special Attack is too complex or powerful. I don’t think it’s too complex, and I really can’t say if it’s too powerful without having tested him.

With regard to the question of Return of Souls, I don’t see any reason to change it from a perspective of potency- just wanted to make sure that was your intent.

EDIT: the issue of complexity is... thorny, to say the least. I won’t delve into it here, not in depth anyway. Complexity shouldn’t be a disqualifier, so long as it is comprehensible and in service to the expression of desired theme, synergy, creative vision. Needless complexity produces jumbled units, often going too many directions at once to produce a card that can really execute its purpose. In my (admittedly rusty) opinion, Druzhul passes the eye test. There are much worse offenders in the Hasbro/VC canon in terms of sheer word count. Then again, I’d be remiss if I didn’t caution custom makers of all stripes to take this phrase as their watchwords: Do Simple Better.

Last edited by Son of Arathorn; August 5th, 2018 at 12:59 AM. Reason: It must be late if i’m quoting Joe in a post about a Necromancer...
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  #2632  
Old August 5th, 2018, 01:33 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I REALLY like it. I have played with similar ideas for elementalists and like the take as a necromancer. Including c3v units, there is definitely enough to work with as far as Valkrill squads and undead goes (although I have to admit that I do not have skeletons). I can see this unit being very useful (ex sucking up Death Knights to get them to the fight faster) and very fun.

Clean up the language a little and let's see this thing go!

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  #2633  
Old August 5th, 2018, 01:52 PM
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wriggz wriggz is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
EDIT: the issue of complexity is... thorny, to say the least. I won’t delve into it here, not in depth anyway. Complexity shouldn’t be a disqualifier, so long as it is comprehensible and in service to the expression of desired theme, synergy, creative vision. Needless complexity produces jumbled units, often going too many directions at once to produce a card that can really execute its purpose. In my (admittedly rusty) opinion, Druzhul passes the eye test. There are much worse offenders in the Hasbro/VC canon in terms of sheer word count. Then again, I’d be remiss if I didn’t caution custom makers of all stripes to take this phrase as their watchwords: Do Simple Better.
I disagree complexity can disqualify a unit. there is a point where a difference of quantity is a difference in kind. there are lots of amazing c3g units that could be perfectly balanced but are just to complex. I'm not saying that is the case here but lots of words tends to be a strike against a unit.

Joten has one of the wordiest cards however his 2 power's only occur on the attack phase. There is no counters or any other bells or interactions with other units. Also he is 225 points and thus is a huge portion of your army meaning there are likely less units to worry about overall. lower point hero units don't get this benifit.


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  #2634  
Old August 5th, 2018, 02:47 PM
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Sir Heroscape Sir Heroscape is online now
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
SOA is right, big wall of text.

Id remove the special attack, it is too powerful.

Id remove sacrificing your own figures and instead focus the power on destroying an opponents figure puts a counter on him. And then the option of removing a counter to return an undead figure.

Give him range and make it a simple double attack power.
I disagree. The special attack is actually very conditional, and forces you to eat even more points into him to get multiple attacks. He's a strong unit, but through initial playtesting, with undead units he becomes weak after getting multiple attacks (because he loses his defense buff, and within 4 range means enemy figures can usually route him) and for armies like DC's where you just soak 55 more points into him for the whole game, you're in a much stronger position but he essentially then becomes a 4 life 5 def 175pt hero with a multi-attack special...which is very much in line with other heroes abilities of a similar power. But again, he's much more conditional than other heroes like that. That and adding a counter mechanic to him I know is tricky business in the SoV and I'm not going that route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
I should clarify my own position- wall of text does not equal bad custom. It does, however, leave limited room for solutions to problems that might arise in SoV testing. You could, to simplify, give him a normal ranged attack and a tweaked double attack power like this-
SOULS OF THE DEAD
Druzdhul the Soulkeeper may attack one additional time for each Valkrill figure Squad on his card. He cannot attack the same figure more than once in a turn.

Of course, that limits his use against certain builds (Rats for one) but it does cut down on the text and allows him to add dice via height advantage and attack auras/enhancements.

Of course, it’s only useful if you think the Special Attack is too complex or powerful. I don’t think it’s too complex, and I really can’t say if it’s too powerful without having tested him.

With regard to the question of Return of Souls, I don’t see any reason to change it from a perspective of potency- just wanted to make sure that was your intent.

EDIT: the issue of complexity is... thorny, to say the least. I won’t delve into it here, not in depth anyway. Complexity shouldn’t be a disqualifier, so long as it is comprehensible and in service to the expression of desired theme, synergy, creative vision. Needless complexity produces jumbled units, often going too many directions at once to produce a card that can really execute its purpose. In my (admittedly rusty) opinion, Druzhul passes the eye test. There are much worse offenders in the Hasbro/VC canon in terms of sheer word count. Then again, I’d be remiss if I didn’t caution custom makers of all stripes to take this phrase as their watchwords: Do Simple Better.
I like the idea you gave for his special, but I really don't think his ability is that complex. It may be wordy, but that's more a matter of help with editing. Mechanically, I feel his specials are quite sound and tight in the way they work together. If I'm missing something specifically please point it out.

And even though I think your idea for a special is one way to take it, I feel like that makes him more of a "been there done that" type of unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
I REALLY like it. I have played with similar ideas for elementalists and like the take as a necromancer. Including c3v units, there is definitely enough to work with as far as Valkrill squads and undead goes (although I have to admit that I do not have skeletons). I can see this unit being very useful (ex sucking up Death Knights to get them to the fight faster) and very fun.

Clean up the language a little and let's see this thing go!
Thank you! I agree. I was hoping @Dad_Scaper could help on cleaning up the language?

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  #2635  
Old August 5th, 2018, 06:06 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Sorry, bud. There’s nothing I can do to save a significant amount of space on that card. That is a *lot* to bite off.

If this was bouncing around inside the C3V, I would encourage the Lead Team to consider dropping the defensive boon and trying to make it work from there.

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
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  #2636  
Old August 5th, 2018, 06:48 PM
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Kinseth Kinseth is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Sorry, bud. There’s nothing I can do to save a significant amount of space on that card. That is a *lot* to bite off.

If this was bouncing around inside the C3V, I would encourage the Lead Team to consider dropping the defensive boon and trying to make it work from there.
100% agreed.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #2637  
Old August 6th, 2018, 12:14 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think this necromancer is pretty awesome. Very unique, very flavorful, and looks like a lot of fun to play. Yeah, his card is a bit wordy, but hey, he's no Augamo (among others). And despite the wordiness, it's a pretty simple card to understand. I don't understand what all the hullabaloo is about in that sense.
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  #2638  
Old August 6th, 2018, 12:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The criticism, as I see it, is not the number of words. It’s the number of gadgets.

As for the comparison to Augamo:

1. I embrace Augamo as a member of the canon but he is not my design nor is he designed the way I might have done so, if he’d been up to me.
2. Augamo has two complex powers and one simple one but not three complex ones, and they are not interdependent.
3. Assuming I agreed with you that Augamo had too many bells and whistles, it does not follow that I should encourage other units with too many bells and whistles.
4. I’m offering my own personal feedback here. Take it for what it’s worth. Not more, not less.

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  #2639  
Old August 6th, 2018, 12:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Oh, I wasn't trying to criticize the big blue golem; I use him and I like him. I just distinctly remember the first time I saw his card my impression was "whoa, that's a lot of text."
My point was that there are existing cards that are wordier than this necromancer, and existing cards that are more complicated than this necromancer. And they all seem to play fine.
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  #2640  
Old August 6th, 2018, 01:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Comparisons to existing units can be valuable, and the comparison to Augamo’s power set is helpful, in its way. I was just trying to explore the limits of that comparison, as I see it.

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
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