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  #1969  
Old March 9th, 2021, 06:00 PM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Haven't tried the demo yet, but I'm looking down Nick's Cave Goblins previews.
I'll do a direct comparison to the prior version:
Old: Sneeks: 7 life, 3 atk, swap spaces with any Cave Goblin
New: Sneeks: 11 life, 3 atk, melee, swap spaces with 0-cost units.
7+ life on a summoner was a lot in V1, 11 seems absurd at first glance. I understand changing the Sly wording from CG to 0-cost with the new deck-building rules, but cards still state their faction on them.

Old Eater: 4 cost, 3 atk, 6 life, destroyed ANY common unit adjacent to it at the end of turn.
New Eater: 6 cost, 5 Atk, 9 life, Only eats your own units, and only if it didn't destroy a unit already.
See also the Soul Eater, 6 cost, 3 atk, 8 life. Always eats any common unit, but eats from the prison pile if there is no food, making it easier to keep on the table.
New eater is an interesting compromise, The extra attack was necessary for it to not be too gimped by solely negative ability.

Old: Smeege, 0 cost, 1 atk, 5 life, Ranged Magic Junkie
New: Smeg 0 cost, 2 atk, 4 life, Magic Junkie, but can attack every turn
Not bad. I rarely played Smeege, just because a 1-atk champ rarely seemed worth it.

Old: Blarf, 1 cost, 0 atk, 5 life. Magic can be spent to buff Blarf at any time (max 4 Atk)
New: Blarf 0 cost, 0 atk, 6 life. A Melee magic junkie who builds strength by one each turn (max 5 atk). Even at full boost, Blarf costs 1 magic or a damage point each turn.

Not a bad re-balance. Being usable with 0-cost events and +1 life seems like a good trade-off for not being at full power turn 1.

Old Climber: 1 cost, 1 atk, range, 1 life. Unit can move through walls, and has better defense next to walls
New Climber: 0 cost, 3 life, 1 atk, melee, moves 3 through structures.

Old Beast Rider: 1 cost, 1 life, 1 atk, can move like a Rook.
Beast Rider: 2 cost, 3 life, 3 atk, can move up to 4 spaces in a straight line, and if it moved at least three, gets +1 atk.

Solid change at first glance. Though conditional 4 attack makes them better nukes than Xaserbane, which is very terrifying.

Clinger: Original 0 cost, 1 atk, 1 life
New 0 cost, 2 at, 2 life. Otherwise identical. Re-balanced, but that's it.

Old: Slinger: 0 cost, 1 atk, 1 life, ranged, Reckless
New: 0 cost, 2 atk, 1 life, no drawback, can attack every turn. Basically a ranged old fighter instead of the old slinger.

I'm seeing a general trend that everything seems to have bigger numbers.

These are very different now. The old Climber couldn't benefit from the 0-cost-common CG events, the new one can. Completely different units.
Events:
Goblin Rush moved 3 0-cost units up to 2 spaces. Sneak ( 0 cost) is any number of 0-cost units one space. Fair enough alteration, but the old card looks like it is generally superior.

Pile on (0 cost): Interestingly, this now affects all units, not just CG units like the original Goblin Horde Attack, and can be built into other decks. I'm concerned about balance.


Unrelenting: 1 magic cost. This guy is new. For one opponent's turn, you get your units back to your hand. That's tricky. Because of the 'instead of destorying' wording, I think this also deprives your foe of magic on kill for that turn. I'm impressed with the design of this card. It feels fundamentally similar to the old 'summoning surge' catch-up event, in that you'll be able to recover from a board wipe (especially with the 0-cost units the CGs are built on), but your opponent knows the consequences before they happen. Very clever. Seems to replace Goblin Invincibility in a very thematic way (yep, they 'died', but they come right back!).



Enrage the Horde: 1 magic cost. Fundamentally similar to the old Goblin Rage. The exception is that while Goblin Rage capped at 3 bonus attacks, this affects All 0-cost units. As with V1, this is a huge event when combined with horde attack/Pile On.


So, that's one common each taken from Sneeks, Frick, and Reinforcements, and two Champs from Sneeks with one from Frick.
The events seem to be basically from Sneeks.
I'm concerned about Deckbuilding and the steps taken away from abilities/events affecting units belonging to a specific faction, but am cautiously optimistic to see how it is implemented.

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Last edited by Nukatha; March 11th, 2021 at 10:20 AM.
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  #1970  
Old March 9th, 2021, 09:04 PM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I disagree on the last point. The game has changed more significantly with respect to deckbuilding and the stats on units. This opened up the design space a bit and has made commons better. Have you tried the demo? Sneeks feels largely the same, but kinda like a greatest hits list of Sneeks and Frick. But there’s a 1/3 melee, 2/2 melee, and 2/1 ranged unit all at 0-cost. Similar variety is seen in the 1-cost breakers commons.
I haven't tried the demo yet, this is just first impressions (I'll give it a whirl next week over break). I see your point, and I'm glad they're making it more balanced. More deck building options is neat, but is that worth the trade-off of having to buy literally everything again?

I look at X-Wing, and the conversion kits were better value. Further, X-Wing 1.0 was WAY worse than SW 1.0 in every regard (balance, degeneracy of the meta, literally everything imaginable). X-Wing 1.0 was, quite frankly, a complete dumpster fire. SW had its problems, but I just can't see myself dropping the money to replace everything when the in-game experience will largely be the same, while not having HUGE problems to fix (like X-Wing 1.0 had).

I may just not be the target audience, which is fine. And to the reader, if you don't own 1.0, definitely give this new edition a go! It's a great game.
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  #1971  
Old March 11th, 2021, 10:39 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

@Jexik
I updated my above New/Old comparison for Cave Goblins based on the last preview (again, I know the full CG/Breakers set are in the demo, but that was enough for me to look over in one go).
I know there was a lot of of care put in to Summoner Wars V1 regarding preventing infinite combos, allowing psuedo-cross-faction play with, say Saella being a Phoenix Elf that could be played in any deck, Duggle's ability being perfectly representative of the Deep Dwarves, and others. The Alliances Set also provided for some unique cross-faction options, though I found the new alliances units generally only benefited one of the two original factions, and even then specifically best helped one of those.
Obvious standouts are the Cave Filth's mutations, which are just Filth mutations. You're unlikely to use the Soul Eater outside of Cave Filth with the whole Prisoner pile thing.
That said, the Swamp Mercenaries are great (especially Turt) in both Swamp Orcs and Merc decks, and ice golems can be fun with Bolvi to have mobile units that can be upgraded to count as walls.
I guess what I'm getting at is that I hope that the dev team is playing very close attention to prevent horribly broken combos, while still allowing for actual creativity.

Last, (since I assume you, Jexik still have something to do with Summoner Wars development), please have Colby update the Heroscapers front-page ad for Dead of Winter to either Ashes 2 or Summoner Wars 2. The DoW link is long broken.

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  #1972  
Old March 11th, 2021, 11:42 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I look at X-Wing, and the conversion kits were better value. Further, X-Wing 1.0 was WAY worse than SW 1.0 in every regard (balance, degeneracy of the meta, literally everything imaginable). X-Wing 1.0 was, quite frankly, a complete dumpster fire. SW had its problems, but I just can't see myself dropping the money to replace everything when the in-game experience will largely be the same, while not having HUGE problems to fix (like X-Wing 1.0 had).
I never played X Wing at a competitive level, but I was kind of surprised by how little some of the raw stats and maneuver dials actually changed. (I just have the Galactic Empire and an unopened Scum upgrade kit). Abilities and point costs all got a huge overhaul, and pretty much anything printed on a card or card stock got reprinted. The only thing that stayed the same is the physical miniatures, which has no analog for Summoner Wars. Also the dice in X Wing appeared to have stayed the same, which they decided to change in Summoner Wars. To buy into all the faction's upgrade kits and a starter set for the new damage cards, you're looking at around $200.00 MSRP, maybe close to 60% of that price if you go strictly off of Amazon prices. You won't be looking at spending $200 MSRP on Summoner Wars 2.0 until there are at least 16 decks.

There was a bit of degeneracy in the game play of high level summoner wars, which is what the core rules changes affect, but Colby decided to re-design all the factions and decks from the ground up to reflect new design goals. The core tactical feel is much the same- as you can guess from the rulebook, but the changes to stats of all the units has meant that this is no longer a game where you plan to get all 3 champions out every game and maybe summon a couple commons.

Although I share some of your fears about event deck building, units will be less problematic since you'll never need to get 2 of any deck. I'd be in favor of playing with open deck lists in high level tournaments to avoid making stuff all about "gotcha" moments.

I'll get to Nukatha's questions in a second...

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #1973  
Old March 11th, 2021, 11:49 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
Last, (since I assume you, Jexik still have something to do with Summoner Wars development), please have Colby update the Heroscapers front-page ad for Dead of Winter to either Ashes 2 or Summoner Wars 2. The DoW link is long broken.
I no longer have anything to do with the development. So far I've applied to help test expansions (as a regular grunt), and have played a bit of the app, including 4 losses to Waterd and 1 Win against Colby after I challenged him in a DM on Twitter.

He has talked a bit about the 12 deckbuilding symbols on a recent podcast and the rulebook... so to me it feels almost like there are 12 "factions" in those symbols, and each faction is actually more similar to the old Alliances- a combo of two symbols.

Tacullu has 13 life and 3 ranged attack, and an ability more like Gulldune's old ability in 1.0. Numbers in general are bigger- Sneeks' 11 life actually seems like it's on the low end of the spectrum. Because numbers are bigger, stuff like Pile On (basically the same as old Goblin Horde Attack) are actually much weaker than they were in 1.0. That's an event that I am not worried about when it comes to being deck built into other factions.

One fun thing I will point out though- Sneeks' new Sly, while limited to 0-costers, can do some crazy stuff since it happens in the attack phase. You can run Sneeks up, hit, then swap with Blarf and have him hit, then play Enrage the Horde in the Magic phase...

I'll also say that Tacullu feels a bit different than old Tacullu. She has much more ability to shift into offensive gear and hit with a surprising amount of reach. Also gone is her old event that steals events out of people's hands. My guess is that other factions will also differ from their old counterparts as well.

So, while Summoner Wars 2.0 still feels like summoner wars, each individual deck will feel more different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; March 11th, 2021 at 12:07 PM.
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  #1974  
Old March 12th, 2021, 03:28 PM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Question: What are the six faces of the new dice?
Is melee now 4/6 hits and range 3/6? Though I suppose the exact composition is important when dealing with those 'special' symbols that are used in a few abilities.
Anyways, I'll do a rundown of the Breakers and how things look different, updating this post as the previews on plaidhatgames.com are posted. Yes, the whole deck is in the demo, but I don't feel like doing it all at once.

Breakers (Renamed Benders)
Unlike new Sneeks, who borrows from across all three Cave Goblins packs (Both summoners and Reinforcements), the Breakers seem to not use anything from Shiva's deck.

Tacullu: Original 5 life, 2 atk ranged, with 'counter summon'.
New: 13 life, 3 atk, ranged, with Mind Capture (identical to Gulldune's old ability)
Even more life than Sneeks. She can take a hit. 3 atk (even with lower odds per dice) is still more possible (and average) than the original form, and allows for the chance of mind capturing stronger units. She also has events to bump her attack a bit now, further upping the chance for a kill/capture of a key enemy unit.
If I remember correctly, I rarely used counter summon when playing as the Benders, as I ended up spending magic mostly on champions and mind control.

Champions:
Old Gwalark: 6 cost, 5 life, 2 atk ranged. Had 'Levitate' (moves through other cards and grants that ability to friendly units within 2 spaces).
New Gwalark: 6 cost, 8 life, 3 atk, ranged. Has 'Flight' (+1 move and move through other cards), and grants 'Flight' to friendly common units within 2 spaces.
Holy mega buff Batman. First, I love the push to more common keywords like 'Flight', that's only a good thing. Gwalark grants +1 move to his common allies. I suppose it is (slightly) balanced by no longer affecting allied champs/summoner, but with keyword 'Flight' granting a bonus move, Wind archers can run four spaces through gates and enemies. That's absurd and seems like it can end a game incredibly quickly. It is like a complete assassin team of multiple Xaserbanes with walk-through-walls cheats activated.


Old Kalal: 7 cost, 5 life, 3 atk, Ranged, messes with either player's deck.
New Kalal: 7 cost, 8 life, 4 atk, Same effect as Wind Mage, except affects units within 3 spaces, and has 'Steadfast', sort of a better version of end of the old Controller ability.


Kalal is now an upgraded Controller/Wind Mage, completely eschewing the old ability. I'm kind of disappointed in this at first. It feels like the Breakers are now much more focused on board manipulation (a lot of 'force' cards between units and events in the base deck now) than 'mental' manipulation. Different feel entirely, while the Cave Goblins seem to retain their original flavor.


Old Gulldune: 5 cost, 4 life, 2 atk, ranged. Mind Captures units that it would destroy. With 2 atk though, you were typically left with a very weak unit, making Mind Capture generally only viable if you could immediately attack with (or otherwise use an ability of) the new unit.
Also Old Sorgwen: 5 cost, 3 life, 3 atk, ranged. Telepathic Command

New Gulldune: 6 cost, 6 life, 4 atk, melee

After teaching Tacullu how to Mind Capture, Gulldune learned Telepathic Command from Sorgwen and forgot how to use ranged magic. In addition, Telepathic Command now works immediately after Gulldune attacks, instead of triggering independent from that at the end of the attack phase.

Overall, New Gulldune costs more, has more life, and more attack than before, but Telepathic Command is significantly more limiting, especially with its triggering reliant on Gulldune pulling off a Melee attack. With the shift away from deck/hand manipulation toward board manipulation, it shouldn't be too difficult to get him into attack position, but I guess we'll see.


Commons:
Wind Archer: 2 cost, 2 life, 4 atk, ranged. Swift for 3 movement, and far-shot for 4 (clear) range.
I see nothing comparable in the old set to this, and this seems too good for what it is. Swift and range makes these highly threatening to nearly the whole board, as I mentioned before, comparable to a ranged Xaserbane.


Old: Controller, 2 cost, 1 life, 2 atk, ranged. After attacking, can move any unit other than a Controller within 2 spaces of it one space.

New: Wind Mage: 1 cost, 3 life, 2 atk, After (or instead of) attacking, move one common or champ within 2 spaces one space.


Now that's a buff i I've ever seen on. Cheaper, 2 extra life, and almost identical effect.

Old Mind Witch: 2 cost, 1 life, 2 atk, ranged. Copy name and ability of an enemy unit within 3 spces.
New Mind Witch: 1 cost, 2 life, 3 atk, ranged. Copy Abilities of any common unit. No longer copies card name.


Mind witch is cheaper, and loses out on copying some powerful champion abilities. However, she's more consistent, acting as a cheap double of your own commons too. If you already have a Wind Archer or Wind Mage on the table, she only costs 1 and can do the same stuff. Interesting rebalance, I think I like it. It'll be interesting to see what deckbuilding options exist a year down the line, as a Mind Witch copying a 3-4 cost common, while only costing one herself, can be quite potent.
Also, rules question: Do Mind Witches mimics happen simultaneously, or in order? That is, can a Mind Witch copy a Mind Witch who has already copied an ability? With the old 'copy enemy unit' ability, this never came up. If it works, that's amazing.



Old Deceiver: 1 cost, 1 life, 1 atk, ranged, and the amazing Stun ability.
New Deceiver: 1 cost, 4 life, 1 atk, ranged, and Stupefy+Engage.
At first glance, Stupefy+Engage is less fun than Stun. Stupefy neuters all adjacent enemies somewhat. Specifically, looking at dice faces, sword units have 4 hits, 1 '0' and one '-1'. This reduces average damage/die down to 1/2 instead of 5/6. This is even better against ranged. 3 hits, 2 'zero', and one '-1', for an average of 1/3 damage per die. (Granted, the attacker's abilities can further modify this, and damage can't go negative so the average damage isn't quite accurate but generically, that's a nice effect).
Engage gives them the standard Heroscape 'Disengagement' mechanic, except with a 100% chance of working. Not bad.
In effect, Deceivers keep the theme of the original, being units that shut down adjacent units, but their abilities now work against ALL enemies instead of only commons, and still give the opponent options. The fact that they still can be attacked is also compensated with the 4 life. All-around, well done on the redesign here.



Events:
Mind Control (Epic, 0 cost), take control of ALL units within two spaces of Tacullu for one turn.
In contrast with the old, permanent mind control for matching the foe's summon cost, this is quite nice for a power turn.


Blast: 1 cost, targets a unit with 3 Clear, straight spaces of the summoner. Force the unit 1-3 spaces, and damage the unit and each one it is forced through. Not bad, but tricky to line up. No analogous event from the original game.


Hypnotic Call: 0 cost Force any common/Champion one space toward your summoner. Tacullu gets an extra attack point against that unit. Great for mind capture, and can be stacked if you have both on one turn for a high chance of kill/capture shenanigans.


Perplexing Tempest: 0 cost, Selundar taught Tacullu this lesser version of Summon the Night. Tricky, but not bad.


Again, I'll keep updating this as the official site is updated.

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Last edited by Nukatha; March 18th, 2021 at 11:03 AM.
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  #1975  
Old March 12th, 2021, 05:27 PM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
Question: What are the six faces of the new dice?
Is melee now 4/6 hits and range 3/6? Though I suppose the exact composition is important when dealing with those 'special' symbols that are used in a few abilities.
Sword Bow
Sword Bow
Sword Bow
Sword
Sword Special
Bow Special

(So sword is actually 5/6, and bow is 4/6, special is 2/6).

I don't recall the exact wording for old Gwalark, but Levitate in 2.0 works at the start of the movement, so you can have Gwalark fly somewhere, and then from there, Levitate someone. Also, Wind Archer has 4 ranged dice.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #1976  
Old March 15th, 2021, 10:52 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I look at X-Wing, and the conversion kits were better value. Further, X-Wing 1.0 was WAY worse than SW 1.0 in every regard (balance, degeneracy of the meta, literally everything imaginable). X-Wing 1.0 was, quite frankly, a complete dumpster fire. SW had its problems, but I just can't see myself dropping the money to replace everything when the in-game experience will largely be the same, while not having HUGE problems to fix (like X-Wing 1.0 had).
I never played X Wing at a competitive level, but I was kind of surprised by how little some of the raw stats and maneuver dials actually changed. (I just have the Galactic Empire and an unopened Scum upgrade kit). Abilities and point costs all got a huge overhaul, and pretty much anything printed on a card or card stock got reprinted. The only thing that stayed the same is the physical miniatures, which has no analog for Summoner Wars. Also the dice in X Wing appeared to have stayed the same, which they decided to change in Summoner Wars. To buy into all the faction's upgrade kits and a starter set for the new damage cards, you're looking at around $200.00 MSRP, maybe close to 60% of that price if you go strictly off of Amazon prices. You won't be looking at spending $200 MSRP on Summoner Wars 2.0 until there are at least 16 decks.

There was a bit of degeneracy in the game play of high level summoner wars, which is what the core rules changes affect, but Colby decided to re-design all the factions and decks from the ground up to reflect new design goals. The core tactical feel is much the same- as you can guess from the rulebook, but the changes to stats of all the units has meant that this is no longer a game where you plan to get all 3 champions out every game and maybe summon a couple commons.

Although I share some of your fears about event deck building, units will be less problematic since you'll never need to get 2 of any deck. I'd be in favor of playing with open deck lists in high level tournaments to avoid making stuff all about "gotcha" moments.

I'll get to Nukatha's questions in a second...
I guess the big difference is that X-Wing 2.0 was $200 to convert $1K+ of product. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the incredible value of the X-Wing and Ashes conversion kits.

On the other hand, I'm coming around to the build symbols. This article has me excited for the new deck building... my wallet is less excited...

https://www.plaidhatgames.com/news/2...jQGM774ziQni1w

Last edited by OEAO; March 15th, 2021 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Maybe they'll send me free stuff if I start THE Competitive SW Podcast? I AM a famous podcaster, after all...
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  #1977  
Old March 15th, 2021, 11:17 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Yeah, I was more casual into X-wing and probably spent under $300 dabbling here and there, so I didn't get into 2.0 until I caved years later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; March 15th, 2021 at 11:17 AM. Reason: I know you're busy, but if you come test, you'll get stuff "free"
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  #1978  
Old March 19th, 2021, 11:59 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

I'm looking down the list of factions. 18 are listed, three more than there were originally, with Mercs as separate.
Old:
Jungle Elves -> Savanna Elves
Cave Goblins
Vanguards
Benders -> Breakers
Fallen Kingdom
Guild Dwarves -> Obsidian Dwarves
Deep Dwarves -> Fungal Dwarves
Swamp Orcs
Sand Goblins
Shadow Elves
Cloaks
Pheonix Elves
Tundra Orcs

New:
High Elves
Polar Dwarves (Perhaps similar to the Tundra Guild in Alliances)
Skyspear Avians (Rath and Sairook get a faction now?)
Wayfarers
Eternal Council

I don't see obvious remakes of the Mountain Vargath or Filth on the roster yet.

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  #1979  
Old March 19th, 2021, 12:30 PM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha View Post
I'm looking down the list of factions. 18 are listed, three more than there were originally, with Mercs as separate.
Old:
Jungle Elves -> Savanna Elves
Cave Goblins
Vanguards
Benders -> Breakers
Fallen Kingdom
Guild Dwarves -> Obsidian Dwarves
Deep Dwarves -> Fungal Dwarves
Swamp Orcs
Sand Goblins
Shadow Elves
Cloaks
Pheonix Elves
Tundra Orcs

New:
High Elves
Polar Dwarves (Perhaps similar to the Tundra Guild in Alliances)
Skyspear Avians (Rath and Sairook get a faction now?)
Wayfarers
Eternal Council

I don't see obvious remakes of the Mountain Vargath or Filth on the roster yet.

No theyve said theyre doing Filth and Vargath in 2023. Filth are gonna be dark/instinct, and Vargath are gonna be Spirit/instinct.

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Last edited by Heroscaper Guy; March 19th, 2021 at 02:33 PM.
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  #1980  
Old March 22nd, 2021, 11:38 AM
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Re: Summoner Wars by Plaid Hat Games

Summoner Wars is a memorable title for me, and I still enjoy playing it to this day. I'm glad to see it coming back around to break ground in board gaming once more.

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