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#109
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design
Alright, I'm calling the vote - we're in public feedback.
@flameslayer93
change the thread title please?
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#110
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design
It is time to welcome public feedback on this thread! We're always open to feedback, but this is when we specifically are asking you for your opinion on a unit! We're interested in getting outsider thoughts on the unit in the main post of this thread so that we can catch any potential errors and make the most polished units possible.
We do ask that all commenters keep in mind the core goals of the AotV project when giving their feedback. For reference, they are: Quote:
These tenants of the project are important cornerstones for each design. Although other units can be very complex or otherwise rely on other units that they were not packaged with, that is not within the scope of this project. Each unit should be interesting when compared only against the rest of AotV; they should still be exciting when taken out of the box, but we are assuming that this is an entry-level product for the game. Think of the original Rise of the Valkyrie Master Set, before any expansions were added, and when all of the units were just standalone unique characters. That said, we welcome your feedback now, and we'd love to hear what you think about this unit! The Public Feedback Phase in this thread will end on 11/22/20, unless otherwise noted. |
#111
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design
For me, I think being Carried by Waves should thematically work no more than 1 or 2 levels higher than her base. For sure less than her height of 5. Water travels downhill so I'm good with more spaces at lower levels. For example, the GIE only freezes what it's standing on (same level), and RTS slimes everything her shoulders rub against (5 levels higher compared to height of 6) plus the ooze runs downhill as well.
So, like: CARRIED BY WAVES All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space. I like where you all have taken this figure. I think I'll try to run a game with her tonight! |
#112
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design
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#113
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
So I soloed a 500 pt. Durnipea vs. Durnipea match yesterday on the Sidewinder map.
Durnipea 80 Valguard 110 Dreadgul Raiders x4 260 Guilty 30 Marcu 20 Vs. Durnipea 80 Microcorp Agents x3 300 Fen Hydra 120 My Thought with the former was just put Valguard and Durnipea together for fun and see if there were any unexpected times when Durnipia felt worth the order marker. The thought with the latter was to make her the centerpiece of the army; Survivability for the Microcorp A’s and healing where it’s most appreciated: the hydra.
Spoiler Alert!
Thoughts: Durnipia with Valgard was responsible for about 15 extra movements but wasn’t ever worth an order marker. Even if Valgard and Guilty had been injured I think it would have been tough keeping her close in an (almost) all melee army, and I definitely wouldn’t have liked giving up height with either one of them to go down to the river to be baptized. Durnipea with the Agents of Hydra (All hail Hydra!) also granted 15 extra moves and got the Agents some great high spots within range to be bolstered. She also had the potential to do some healing if I had played better or if the Hydra’s luck would have been better. She did manage to help some water-specialized figures but any aggro that would have gone their way was easy to turn on her instead since she was so close, and with a better chance to hit. Maybe I got an extra attack or two from a primed Agent out of the deal, but I would have gotten 3 extra attacks had I put her order marker on them instead. Final thoughts: I did get some of her points back out of the movement augmentation. Raelin would have done the same protection job from a safer distance and Kelda would have been able to reach the Hydra and almost surely healed something without as much finagling, but neither could have potentially done both. However, it’s going to be quite a specialized build that wants to do both. I didn’t really explore her potential to gum up a choke point yet but for 80 points, Rats x2 are going to be better at that. What sets her apart from the other healers currently, is her ability to heal multiple Heroes (and herself) at the same time so maybe with the Lawmen or a Laglor ranged pod. I think if I’d want to take her over Kelda, though, I’d like to see the heal chance go up. Right now I’d rather take one 95% chance to heal than two or three 30% chances . . . . . . I’m gonna try some other armies out so I can develop my thoughts more |
#114
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
I hope I'm not being overenthusiastic to what is being hoped for from public feedback, but I have more thoughts so I'll post them. If I'm overstepping then please ignore anything that is too much.
I know the healing dial is a moving target, but I want to make a case for it starting at a roll of 6-20.
On being a Rusalka and a Nymph: I have less pause at her being a Nymph than a Rusalka, but I don't think she should be both. At least not for her class. Rusalka is my least favorite for this sculpt.What if her 4 space sphere of influence over water, was for both her healing ability and her gift of slither: CARRIED BY WAVESFinally, I think the wording for Healing Waters should more closely resemble other healers: HEALING WATERS[/Thoughts] Last edited by Strack9; November 20th, 2020 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Grammar |
#115
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
@Strack9
Thanks so much for your playtest and in depth feedback! I can't speak for all of the pod members here, but personally your most recent post is exactly the kind of engagement and feedback I was hoping for, so thank you!
First, I like your proposed wording for Healing Waters to bring things more in line with the other healers and would suggest adopting it. I also can definitely see how Healing Waters could be underwhelming in practice. Lowering the target number is an obvious solution to that, and I'm definitely open to exploring that direction. 6+ seems a little low to me, but I think its worth considering. An alternate possibility would be to borrow a page from Marro Warriors and make Healing Waters affect everyone within 4 spaces, and then just give a boost to the roll if they're on a water space. Something like this was suggested very early in the thread, but never in a form that could heal multiple heroes, which I think is an interesting feature of the current design. It would end up looking something like this: Quote:
I also think that the concerns about the pairing of Rusalka and Nymph are justified. Personally I lean slightly toward using Nymph as a species over Merfolk, mainly because Merfolk is already an established D&D species. Since D&D lore is technically canon within heroscape, I could see how making her a merfolk might mean that we'd have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D merfolk. I think I'd prefer the Nymph species and just Healer class, although I'd be open to exploring a more "regal" direction for her as well. Another potential option for species that's already been used before is "Sidhe" which is the species of the c3v Eilan Sidhe. Google defines "Sidhe" as Quote:
I'm less convinced that expanding the range for Carried By Waves to a 4 space radius is necessary? It also strikes me as just slightly less thematic, since the terraforming part of the ability only affects spaces next to her. Anyway, thanks again for your feedback and the playtest. It's SUPER helpful and exciting to get input from people outside the pod itself |
#116
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
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V2 seems alright to me too. I'm not sure how I feel yet. I suspect the usefulness of covering 61 spaces with healing potential will drive the to-hit numbers up on principle, but that in practice the 1 or 2 heroes able to have been healed, could have been gotten adjacent to and would have valued a higher % chance to be healed that the power night have offered if it were more restrictive who it could target. Quote:
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On the other side of the thematics coin, I think it would also make sense, and she'd still be useful, if she could only heal heroes that were adjacent to her since that's where the water she brought with her is. |
#117
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
Wow, thank you for all the feedback, Strack!
I'm okay with Nymph, and I think those are good ideas. I'd be fine with a radius difference between her heal and her terraform, with a Marro-like bonus for those on water. The slither stretching 4 spaces seems like a lot? Going to extend the public feedback for a week or so. |
#118
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
I'm not sure why this design is Durnipia. I like the design itself a lot, but the focus on water and overall aesthetic of the design heavily imply Aquilla here. I know that this was a point of discussion much earlier in the process, but I feel like either a new, water-focused character following Aquilla or Durnipia (paying homage to her existing lore) were very promising directions for this character. The design in the OP is almost entirely leaning towards the former, but it is still called Durnipia. It's certainly fine to take a new spin on existing characters, but for a relatively obscure pull from official bios, I don't feel like this adds much to the presented character. Especially given that we don't have any Aquilla characters in our box yet, I feel like a new character based on the Rusalka mythos is much more fitting here.
I also agree with @Strack9 's comment about 5 spaces being too much thematically. I do think that the height limits should match on either side of her base, though--even though water flows downhill, it'll be much easier for new players to remember if it's just one static cutoff on either side. To that end, I'd suggest limiting the water conversion to just within 2 levels above or below her base, or some other similarly small value. I also agree with Captain Stupendeous that it would be good to set a high roll cutoff for healing any heroes, even on land (perhaps 18+), and just provide a bonus to the D20 for being on a water space, a la the Marro Warriors. That would let her be more valuable in a variety of team builds or the Master Set in general, but especially useful on maps with water (which often place water in inopportune locations anyway). These values could of course be tuned in playtesting. My final concern is perhaps the greatest: as it stands, Durnipia is going to really block up your own units. Since she only grants the ability to move through water without stopping to figures that begin their turn adjacent to her, your own units will have to stop adjacent to her (assuming the power isn't intended to be optional), even if they're squad figures or something else that doesn't need healing. Other units then wouldn't be able to move through them, since they would have to stop in the water. It may be fine just in our box of mostly heroes and wide-open cardboard mats, but Durnipia being best at hindering your own army's movement has the potential to be super frustrating. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#119
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
@Strack9 you're awesome.
Some general thoughts on some of the points being discussed. The only things we know about Durnipia from the lore is she's a healer and she's employed by Einar. There's no reason she couldn't have water-focused magic. The golden staff/armor are also very Einar (opulent). Any figure could of course be its own new thing, but there's also nothing that tells me this definitely isn't Durnipia. I agree that +/- 5 levels seems like a bit much. I think the movement should be reworded to allow friendly figures to not have to stop in water adjacent to her, regardless of whether or no they started there. That would actually have the intended effect of helping your army while hindering your opponent's. I thought (and hoped) we were moving in the "Marro Warrior" direction of any healing but a boost on water spaces. If we wanted to tie that in to the magic value of "6", how about 16+ with +10 on water? No strong feelings either way on being a self-healing healer, though I think Sonlen is the only other one currently. I'd be OK with "Merfolk" here. Or we could take the Heroscape-y path of making up something similar (like Trolticor or Gryphillin). Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#120
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb
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This design can be called Durnipia for sure, but I don't think that necessarily means that it should be called Durnipia. Especially since we already have Katryn shaping up to be an Einar Icarian and the Pheonix brainstorming drafts have heavily leaned towards Einar, I think that we shouldn't try to force this draft into another Einar unit when Aquilla is unlikely to receive much love other than the upcoming Merfolk Roilmage sculpt. At the very least, if Pod 2 wants this design to be Durnipia, then I think that it should do something more with the character than feel like a fantasy merfolk healer straight out of Aquilla's troops (I was fond of the Sci-Fi alien transplant direction for Durnipia, for example, but that's inherently a redesign of a strong design that I don't think needs one). Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
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