What's for dinner?

[Gulp]

I've been vegetarian for about 16 years now. I was vegan for a few years, and it shaped my views even though I don't think it's for everyone.

My dinner: Tonight I walked up to the local grocery store. I bought a freshly made loaf of bread (rosemary and olive oil baked into it), zucchini, yellow squash and asparagus. All fresh. I steamed the vegetables for a few minutes, and then added margarine, a little salt, pepper and garlic powder. Easy, yummy and good for ya.

Why vegetarian? I don't feel I have the right to decide that it's okay for an animal to suffer (and yes they do suffer real pain and terror) just because I want to take a selfish shortcut to food that is unhealthy for me and a scourge on the planet. If you're concerned about the environment, and you eat meat at every meal especially fast food, then seriously, just stop trying.

[Oh Yeah! I'm Here]

But it is the natural order to consume other animals, and humans are no exceptions. It is completely Natural to consume others. All animals share pain and terror as feelings, that's just the way we are.

I do agree that you should definitely not eat fast food. I have been off of fast food for 1 1/4 years now and plan to stay off. I, as a person, do not eat meat every meal. Today I haven't even had meat today yet, and probably won't. It is completely healthy to have a balance of meat, vegetables, fruits, and carbs in your diet.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Most of what I eat is either pasta or junk food.

An interesting argument against the consumption of meat is that it drains alot of resources.

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by Oh Yeah! I'm Here

But it is the natural order to consume other animals, and humans are no exceptions. It is completely Natural to consume others. All animals share pain and terror as feelings, that's just the way we are.

That really isn't an argument.

It's also completely natural for me to enslave other humans as long as it suits my needs. This argument works well as long as you don't ever ask, 'What's in MY best interests?' Is it good to enslave people? Yes, in the short run, but it would be better to have those people contribute economically, culturally and intellectually for the betterment of society.

Is it good to eat animals? Yes, if you are living in the jungle or savanna and the only protein available is by killing another animal, then by all means do what you need to do. But if you live in a society of excess, a society that LOVES to eat 10 times more meet each week than the body can process (which leads to bad health) or a society which produces meat on a scale that literally destroys America for fun (because it's unnecessary) from the inside out...

I've heard the best argument attempts for the past 16 years, and I can help you out by telling you what your best argument is: 1) I don't care. You either care to see what the results of your diet are, or you don't.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Gulp

I've heard the best argument attempts for the past 16 years, and I can help you out by telling you what your best argument is: 1) I don't care. You either care to see what the results of your diet are, or you don't.

Yeah, I really think that's it.

I'll stop eating meat when barbecue ribs stop being delicious.

Although if I really had to make a choice between bread (and grains in general) and meat, I'd stop eating meat.

Another argument against eating fresh fruits and vegetables and whole grain foods, instead of the canned and processed ones is price. For a number of people that makes a difference. (But it doesn't really explain why that same person might buy 80 dollars worth of plastic because "new" heroscape came out).

I've steadily been gaining about 3-4 pounds each year since I graduated high school, and I believe that my diet is a lot of the reason. Spending too much time sitting is probably the other.

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

Originally Posted by ollie

Our third attempt at a vegetable garden is underway. The first year was not great (we were starting in June from lawn) but last year we got some good stuff: beans, peas, as much squash as we could eat. We're trying potatoes for the first time this year, and we've also put in some raspberries, blueberries, apples and pears. Deer have eaten almost all the leaves from the fruit trees though.

Here's the best argument to eat animals I think; To stop them from eating my plants.

Deer have eaten a lot of my fruit trees in the past too, and they ate a tomato plant once and usually take about 10% of the corn. I get lots of rabbits eating my vegetables, but that usually only last a week, with me chasing them they learn to stay away. I use to have a big male cat named Sumo-Sai that slept in my garden and none of the rabbits dared go in there with him. I find now that if I take some cats and pull their loose fur out and spread it around it keeps the rabbits away. This seems to work on deer too. I recommend you adopt a dog who needs a home, as they lend themselves well to keeping those animals away.

Originally Posted by J4Jandar

I feel the human body is designed to be omnivorous. People have the lifestyle choice to sustain themselves however they wish though going strictly vegan is very hard to maintain and stay healthy in my eyes. I have a problem with people telling me that I should not eat meat. I do not hear any one standing up for vegetable rights.

My vegetable plants don't follow me around the house and sleep in my bed. Plants benefit from having their fruit, or "children" for those plant right activist, eaten. It's how the seed gets spread out and planted. I don't think that's how it works with cows. We're both just being silly I know. Sorry if you've had experiences with some hippies telling you you were immoral because you choose to eat animals, though I don't think it's hard to stay healthy being vegan, not at all. I, at the least, encourage practicing a vegetarian diet.

Originally Posted by Jexik

Another argument against eating fresh fruits and vegetables and whole grain foods, instead of the canned and processed ones is price. For a number of people that makes a difference. (But it doesn't really explain why that same person might buy 80 dollars worth of plastic because "new" heroscape came out).

It can be the cheapest thing if you put in a little time. I can grow my four favorite foods on my land for very little expense. Apples, cabbage, oats, and watermelon. During the three months that I have a constant supply of watermelons, they make up 50% of my diet (I said they were a favorite) Plus during these months I rarely need to drink and they make great gifts. $400 worth of watermelon for a few dollar investment. Yes! Victory!

[Jandarforever]

Yeah, it's cool how you can spend a few bucks on seeds, and wind up saving tons of money that would have gone towards the same food from somewhere else. Another reason I'm excited about having a vegetable garden is because of our irrigation system we installed. We bought a whole set of tubes and connectors, which hook up to a faucet on our house, run all through our blueberry patches, and then down to our vegetables. Lack of rain really impacted our garden one year, so it's a huge blessing to have irrigation. This year, we're growing tomatoes, potatoes, corn, beans, peppers, broccoli, carrots, onions, asparagus, watermelon, cantaloupe, and hopefully along with our other fruits of apples and blueberries, some strawberries.

[Oh Yeah! I'm Here]

When I get my own house, I plan to have a vegetable garden, and some Watermelon, too!

[ollie]

Thanks everyone for sharing your vegetable growing stories---inspiring stuff. I'll have to sneak up on an unsuspecting cat to get some fur.

Originally Posted by Chimpy

I have little qualms about what I eat, as long as it does taste good. My reaction upon seeing the consumption of live Sashimi was simply, "I want to try that!"

Interesting article! That's somewhere I'd like to eat, even though I'm not a big sashimi fan. (I've eaten it a few times, but didn't especially enjoy it). That whole fried fish looked great. I think the big appeal was how obvious it was that the restaurant cared about the food.

Originally Posted by Gulp

I've heard the best argument attempts for the past 16 years, and I can help you out by telling you what your best argument is: 1) I don't care. You either care to see what the results of your diet are, or you don't.

As a non-vegetarian who agrees that the onus is on me to justify my choice to eat meat, can I have a go at a slight modification of this argument?

I don't care enough.

Rephrasing to make that sound more reasonable (or just more self-serving?), there are a lot of ethical issues surrounding food, and they are often in competition with each other. In an ideal world I'd wave my ethicalometer (think Egon's PKE meter in Ghostbusters) at a piece of food and only buy it if it was sufficiently ethical. I don't think that the line would put all meat out of bounds and all non-meat in bounds.

Of course, this argument is empty without knowing how my ethicalometer works. Unfortunately, I don't know, and on different days it gives different results (and some days I forget to use it entirely). However, I can list at least a few considerations in its algorithm.

Probably the principle overarching consideration is energy, thanks to concern about peak oil and global warming. How much oil has been used to get this food to me? This breaks down into avoiding, where possible, food that uses lots of artificial fertilizer (ie non-organic food), food that has to be transported long distances to reach me, and food that lives higher up the food chain (beef takes a lot more energy to produce than rhubarb). Another push for locality, and the one that makes locality probably my main concern, is economic. We're facing tough times, and the more locally I deploy my dollars the healthier my immediate community is and the more able to support itself and therefore me. Animal cruelty is on the list too. By buying from small local farms (directly whenever I get the chance) I'm usually happy enough on this score.

[HSisforcoolkids]

I eat plenty of meat, but since marrying someone who doesn't eat pork or beef, I eat much less than I used to. My meat intake is almost exclusively chicken at this point.

Over the past couple of years I have made a move towards eating more organic foods, but mostly due to health reasons. We drink lots of milk--about 1.5 gallons/week--and since we read organic milk was so much better for you than non-organic, we made the switch, even though it cost quite a bit more. We also eat a lot of organic veggies and some organic fruits. I have noticed that since making this switch, I have fewer problems with my digestion. My wife and I can't afford to have an all-organic diet right now, but I believe in the future we will have an almost completely organic diet, including organic meats.

I do feel bad when I hear about chickens who are made so fat that their legs break and things like that. I feel like some of the claims are a bit exaggerated, but regardless, things like that shouldn't happen. I would like to make enough money that I can buy from local farms like ollie wrote about. Sometimes, though, that requires quite an investment and a large freezer to keep your food in. One day, my friends, one day.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Another argument against eating fresh fruits and vegetables and whole grain foods, instead of the canned and processed ones is price. For a number of people that makes a difference.

This is where the argument gets political.

A lot of the reason that unhealthy foods are so cheap is that government policies subsidize some sources of food over others. Omnivore's Dilemma does a good job explaining how.

If I were king for a day, one of the first things I would do is repeal 95% of the farm bill, which offers huge subsidies to certain types of agriculture and encourages a lot of the practices that lead to unhealthy foods being the most common/cheap.

In lieu of (or in addition to, given spending levels) income taxes, I would suggest taxing:

- all carbon-based fuels at $0.20/lb C
- "vehicle miles driven" taxes, indexed to the weight of the vehicle
- all packaged/disposable products, based on the average volume of landfill use.

Those are all taxes on things that are bad for society (pollution, road wear, physical waste) as oppose to something that is good for society (working).

I would probably go a step further and also suggest taxing some of the more blatantly unhealthy food products (trans fats being the most obvious) on top of that. Given that society increasingly bears the cost for poor public health, providing economic incentives for healthy behavior is simply sound public policy.

All of these things would conspire to make the cheap prepackaged foods more expensive, while not really affecting the price of local/fresh/natural products. Of course, overall food prices for those looking to spend the least amount of money would still be higher, this can be balanced with lower income taxes for poor people. I would go so far as suggesting replacing welfare with a negative income tax. There's also food stamps, which are one of the most successful government programs already, and it would be easy enough to use the food stamp program to encourage more healthy eating.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by HSisforcoolkids

I would like to make enough money that I can buy from local farms like ollie wrote about. Sometimes, though, that requires quite an investment and a large freezer to keep your food in. One day, my friends, one day.

Actually, I've found the prices to be no more than the supermarket, and often less. This is especially true at the really tiny stands that just stock a single farm's produce and have a set of scales and an honesty box for payment. I'm very lucky that there are quite a few of these near me. Of course, the flip side is the lack of choice and sometimes, if you're late in the day, the lack of anything.

Two ways to make meat more affordable, which seem obvious, are to use less and use less popular cuts. The salt pork casserole I mentioned as last night's (and tonight's) dinner used certainly less than a pound of meat and it'll serve two (greedy) people three meals each. Beans are definitely your friend in this regard.

A couple of books I love for how to deal with the lesser used cuts are The Whole Beast: Nose to Tail Eating by Fergus Henderson and The River Cottage Meat Book by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. The second in particular is a book I keep rereading. As well as the recipes it tackles the ethical issues of meat eating. It's one of those books with glossy close-ups of the food, but one thing that struck me as really interesting is that they use the same style of photo for the slaughter and preparation. In the first chapter, we get a series of photos as the author's own cattle are taken to the abbatoir, slaughtered and butchered.

I'm looking into buying a chest freezer at at the moment. I regularly pass a sign that reads "Grass-fed dry-aged beef. 150lb minimum order." It's so tempting.