2020 C3V Playtest Tournament - (Congrats vegietarian18)

[Chris Perkins]

The Toogwick_Tuk v. Chris Perkins pool of armies is:

* : Cathar Spearmen x3, Count Raymond, Motley Max, Arkmer
* : Ranjit Singh, Krav Maga, Theracus, Raelin (RotV), Himmelskralle, Guilty McCreech, Isamu
* Weakness to Bug Spray: Amberhive Protectors x4, Amberhive Queen, Sujoah
* Ugly Orcs: Horned Skull Brutes x3, Goblin Cutters x3, Bugbear Basher x2, Isamu

Toogwick_Tuk chooses which army to play first or may defer. After armies are picked, Chris Perkins chooses who places first.

Edit: Result

I got the win v. TT with a strong showing from Ranjit's pod.

I opened with Theracus moving into the center of the map, blocking the road and taking the center shadow, carrying Raelin with him to the 2 height dungeon space adjacent. Theracus ended up holding that spot (rolling mostly 7 defense) for almost the whole game until Count Raymond finally killed him in the late game. But Theracus holding that spot limited the number of Cathar attacks I took for the whole game and forced several of them to take the long way around to the north and south. TT opened with OM1 & 2 on cathar, moving them up and taking a few attacks on Theracus that didn't go anywhere. I had OM2 on Guilty, who killed 1 cathar, and OM3 on Krav, who killed 2 more cathar. Motley Max moved up (no attack or chain grab) to finish TT's round 1.

In round 2, TT moved Motley up first on OM 1 but was only able to chain grab one of my Krav because of the varying height around the center of the map. That krav was then killed by cathar on TT's next OM. I moved in Himmel on OM1, who killed a cathar and then put 4 wounds on Motley max with the 2nd attack. The Krav later finished Max off before he took another turn. The same-height rule for chain grab really limited his effectiveness this game; pulling 2 krav out instead of 1 could have made a big difference.

The mid-game consisted of me running 1 OM per round each on Krav, Himmel, Guilty/Ranjit (after guilty died to a cathar who had moved around the north end of my blockade. The cathar were able to kill a 2nd Krav, but didn't get anything else before I had them down to 2 cathar left and TT switched to Arkmer & Raymond, who both moved up together into the center of the battlefield.

In the end-game, Raymond took the 3 height road next to Theracus, where he finally put 2 wounds on Theracus on his first attack. Himmel then flew over Raymond and put 3 wounds on Arkmer on the first attack, finishing him. I then pivoted all my heroes south, setting up with Raelin on a 3 height, Himmel on a 3 height, and Ranjit on the 2 height shadow between them. Raymond followed, eventually killing Raelin after 3 attacks up, but my other heroes (and the remaining Krav) brought him down.

I won with a full health Ranjit, a 4 life Himmel, 1 Krav, and Isamu who never moved.

Thoughts on the testing units:

Ranjit - incredibly useful and strong this game. 5 attack Krav (with height) are rather strong against a mele army, and were only limited by Max's chain grab. Ranjit also went 4/4 on subterfuge rolls, several of which took away key OMs on both the cathar & raymond. The only aspect of the Ranjit build that didn't play as well as normal was kiting with the Krav - with only taking 1 OM per round on them, kiting becomes almost impossible once cathar got around my Theracus blockage. I ended up just leaving them on good height and letting the cathar engage them because I couldn't successfully run consistently with 1 OM per round.

Motley Max - chain grab allowed him to get the Krav down to 2 figures, but that's all he did. Only took 2 OMs the whole game and died quickly to heavy attacks from Himmel & Krav once he had to give up high ground to even use chain grab once. This map definitely didn't play to Max's suits though, as the center of the map (where I put my whole pod) has so much elevation change.

[dok]

Originally Posted by kevindola

The dok (2-0) v. Captain Stupendous (2-0) pool of armies is:

* Majaratpodge: deathreavers x3, Ranjit Singh, Syvarris, Rygarn, Marro Warriors
* A Burning Sensation: Xualtiaca Fire Ants x5, Axentia, Siiv
* Ranjit's Rowdy Crew: Ranjit Singh, Krav Maga Agents, Arktos, Varkanaan Swiftfangs, Zettian Guards, Isamu
* A Painful Exspearience: 12th Cacusus Rifles x3, Cathar Spearmen x2, Motley Max, Guilty McCreech

dok chooses which army to play first or may defer. After armies are picked, Captain Stupendous chooses who places first.

Should be starting soon. Check on Discord for audio.

[Heroscaper Guy]

Copy pasting my document, will add thoughts in later.
Round 3 Tournament Report: 500 points
Map: Desperado
Glyphs: Yngvild, Ulaniva

Scaperedude - Motley Bunch: Marro Stingers x3, Nakita Agents, Motley Max, Izumi Samurai
Heroscaper Guy - The Frying Pan: Warforged Soldiers x4, Axentia

Which units survived? Motley Max with 2 wounds

Spoiler Alert!

Initative won by scaperedude who does izumi first
Axentia moves to a shadow
Izumi hits axentia for one
Axentia is hit by counterstrike for one
Stingers hit her for one
Axentia wounds herself, and then kills a marro

Round 2
Axentia wounds herself again, and then immolates two marro
Stingers do nothing
Axentia goes for a firebomb, and misses her rolls, but kills a stinger on the attack
Axentia is killed by the stingers, her rising kills a stinger and a nakita
Axentia goes and kills a stinger
Stingers are unsuccesful in their attacks on axentia

Round 3
Axnetia kills a stinger
Stingers deal 3 wounds to axentia
Axentia kills another stinger, leaving one left
The last stinger deals 2 damage to axentia
Axentia kills a nakita
The last nakita kills axentia

Round 4
The nakita moves up
The warforged begin a slow march
The nakita is blocked
The warforged kill a samurai
The stinger kills a warforged
The warforged are blocked on the nakita, but kill the last stinger

Round 5
The nakita is blocked
The warforged move up another, and 2 are killed by counterstrike
The izumi are blocked
The warforged kill an izum, and another is killed by counterstrike
The warforged move up, one is killed by counterstrike again, and the others attack is blocked on the last nakita

Round 6
Max chains, and kills a warforged
The warforged kill the last nakita and izumi
Max kills a warforged
Two warforged die engaging him and the other is blocked
Another warforged dies to engagement

Round 7
Warforged do nothing
Max is blocked
The warforged are blocked
Max is blocked
The warforged are blocked
Leaving engagement wounds max

Round 8
Blocked and killed by engagement strike
Max is unsuccesful
Max takes a wound
Max kills the last warforged

General thoughts, so I think I played it pretty well, with axentia wrecking havoc on his squads. I do think though that I made one big bad decision that wrecked me (along with the bad dice luck). After Axentia immolated a Nakita (and I wanna say 2 stingers, but I'm too lazy to look), I should have went and wailed on Max with Axentia. I decided instead to go after the other Nakitas and Marro and while I was pretty good with that, Max and the Samurai's counterstrike luck just wrecked the Warforged. Hindsights 20/20 but right after that move, I thought, maybe I shoulda gone after the no-order marker max instead of focusing on his units that had OMs, but live and learn.

[Captain Stupendous]

Map: Desperado
Game Link: https://www.heroscapers.com/ohs/inde...tMAbgYddtpuYUw

Army 1: @dok deathreavers x3, Ranjit Singh, Syvarris, Rygarn, Marro Warriors
Army 2: (Captain Stupendous) Xualtiaca Fire Ants x5, Axentia, Siiv

We played with the following modifications to Axentia:

Axentia had 6 life instead of 7, and we used the new version of Phoenix Rising: When Axentia would be destroyed, do not destroy Axentia. If it is Axentia's turn, her turn ends immediately. Before the next Order Marker is revealed by any player, remove all wound markers from this Army Card and roll the 20-sided die for all figures within 2 clear sight spaces of Axentia, one at a time. If you roll a 7 or higher, the figure receives a wound. After using Phoenix Rising, negate all powers on this card except Flying for the rest of the game.

Which units survived? Army 2 won with three fire ants and a full life Siiv

Game Summary:

Spoiler Alert!

In the first round I advanced Axentia to some height on the northern hill with one order marker, and used my other two order markers to begin advancing ants, also securing the disengage glyph to the south. Dok advanced the deathreavers, used om 2 to advance Syvarris to kill an ant (the other attack was blocked), and used Rygarn to move his third om over to the deathreavers, further clogging up the elevation to the north and securing the unique attack glyph for himself.

In round 2 I advanced the ants with my first two order markers, then used Axentia with my third to engage Syvarris and deal 2 wounds to him. Meanwhile, Dok advanced deathreavers with OM 1, then had a very unlucky turn with Syvarris where he only rolled 1 skull with 6 attack against an adjacent ant. The ant blocked it, and even though he killed the ant with the double attack, he missed the opportunity to attack Axentia with 6 attack, which was huge. Doks third OM was on Rygarn and dealt another wound to Axentia.

In round 3, I won initiative and finished off Syvarris with Axentia with my first OM. Dok’s first OM was on the Marro who sniped some ants. My second OM was on Axentia, who immolated herself while failing three immolation rolls against Dok’s figures, then missed an attack against Rygarn. Dok’s next OM was on Ranjit, who did not engage anyone but missed his diplomacy roll. My third OM was on the ants who I think killed some more deathreavers, and then Dok used Rygarn to move his third OM from Syvarris to the marro, who killed some more ants.

I won initiative again, and used Axentia, who again immolated herself, but at least this time did deal one wound to Rygarn, even though she missed Ranjit and a marro. Axentia then did 2 wounds to Ranjit with her normal attack. With his first OM, Dok used the marro to kill Axentia, but phoenix rising dealt one more wound to ranjit, and killed a deathreaver and a marro. It missed Rygarn. I used ants with OM 2, stinging a couple more deathreavers. With his second OM, Dok successfully diplomacied my third OM on my ants, then dealt 1 wound to Axentia with his normal.

In the fourth round, Axentia was able to finish off Ranjit before dying herself, leaving me with a swarm of ants while he just had a couple marro warriors and a bunch of deathreavers. My ants got lucky and were able to kill the remaining marro during this round, which led to several rounds of ant vs deathreaver bloodshed. Surprisingly, at this point Dok started to come back, but then I was able to deal 3 wounds to kill off Rygarn in a single turn with the ants. At this point I began developing Siiv, who was able to kill the last deathreaver.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?
Axentia rolled for immolation against enemy figures 8 times and against herself 5 times. She only dealt 1 immolation wound to enemy figures (Rygarn), and dealt 2 wounds to herself. This game, immolation was essentially a negative power as it ended up hurting Axentia more than it helped her.

However, Phoenix Rising was used to deal one wound each to Ranjit, one marro, and one deathreaver. It missed Rygarn.

Axentia dealt 5 wounds to Ranjit with her normal attack and 4 wounds to Syvarris.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

This was a very fun game, although I think the reason my army won was due in no small part to some very lucky attack and defense rolls (as you can see in the stats copied below). Ants are also a very potent counter to deathreavers, and control of the disengage glyph helped me play aggressively with Axentia.

I think that the changes to Axentia help move her in the right direction, although I still think she might be somewhat overpowered relative to her points. In this game, she managed to singlehandedly kill Ranjit and Syvarris, while also dealing one wound to Rygarn and killing one marro warrior and one deathreaver. That adds up to far more than 180 points. What is especially impressive about that killscore, however, is the fact that only one of those wounds was dealt via immolation, despite rolling for the ability 8 times against enemy figures. In this game, immolation actually hurt her more than it helped her, as she lost two health due to her own immolation. If she was able to perform this well in a game where immolation was essentially a negative power, imagine her potential when she actually rolls well for immolation.

Six life for Axentia feels much more reasonable than seven. However, the change to Phoenix Rising felt more like a lateral move than a nerf. In my opinion, I think you could limit Phoenix Rising to only affect adjacent figures on a roll of 7+ and it would still be fine.
I also had another idea for Immolation that could be interesting, and reduce her overall power while also reducing the variance of the ability. Imagine if Immolation was worded like:

IMMOLATION 14
After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to Axentia. If you roll a 14 or higher, Axentia and that figure each receive 1 wound. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Immolation.

I think that overall this change would definitely make her less powerful, but it would also remove the possibility of Immolation hurting Axentia more than it hurts her enemies, as happened in this game. In the end this change would would help her perform more consistently, while still bringing down her overall power level. I understand that this unit is already well along in design, so of course feel free to ignore this unsolicited design suggestion

Ranjit is still my favorite figure currently in playtesting, but he does seem to be underperforming slightly. I think his point value could easily be dialed down to 130 or 120. Another potential change that I suggested to Dok during the game would be to make him also grant disengage to unique figures as part of Lion of Punjab. It seems like a big problem his armies currently have is the tendency for their figures (especially unique ranged squads) to get tied down by enemy common figures since they can only have one OM per round. Giving his army disengage could help Ranjit’s allies get out of the dangerous engagements that they seem to inevitably get tied up in.

Overall though, I’m really impressed with both of these designs and excited to see how they continue to develop.

Game Stats:

Spoiler Alert!

Dok
Attack rolls: 75 out of 152 (49.34%)
Defense rolls: 5 out of 28 (17.86%)
Total dice rolled: 180

Captain Stupendous
Attack rolls: 22 out of 45 (48.89%)
Defense rolls: 41 out of 92 (44.57%)
Total dice rolled: 137

[Cuzmo_of_Gilead]

The AgentWard (2-0) v. Cuzmo_of_Gilead (1-1) pool of armies is:
* The Outsiders Strike Back: Children of the Dark Star x3, Z'Thoth Mouth of the Abyss, Agga-Zemir, Eldgrim
* Agressive Negotiation: deathknights of Valkrill x2, Ranjit Singh, Boreos, Krav Maga Agents, Marcu Esenwein
* Nilfheim to the Max: Greenscale Warriors x3, Nilfheim, Motley Max
* Marcus Rising: Roman Legionnaires x3, Axentia, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Me-Burq-Sa, Marcu Esenwein

Match is being played tomorrow at 11am eastern time.

[flameslayer93]

Dysole and I just finished. My goblins beat her vipers.


Morale of the game: Bonding is strong.

[Cuzmo_of_Gilead]

Originally Posted by Cuzmo_of_Gilead

The AgentWard (2-0) v. Cuzmo_of_Gilead (1-1) pool of armies is:
* The Outsiders Strike Back: Children of the Dark Star x3, Z'Thoth Mouth of the Abyss, Agga-Zemir, Eldgrim
* Agressive Negotiation: deathknights of Valkrill x2, Ranjit Singh, Boreos, Krav Maga Agents, Marcu Esenwein
* Nilfheim to the Max: Greenscale Warriors x3, Nilfheim, Motley Max
* Marcus Rising: Roman Legionnaires x3, Axentia, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Me-Burq-Sa, Marcu Esenwein

Match is being played tomorrow at 11am eastern time.

500 points
Desperado w/ Yngvild and Ulaniva
Which units survived? Seven roman legionnaires

Battle Report:
This was a great match and a fairly close battle for awhile. My notes are a bit messy as it was pretty intense for most of the game.

Rd 1 - AgentWard moves out Z'Thoth and Agga-Zemir while I move out MBS. Eldgrim moves in later and puts a wound on MBS while MBS returns with a stare and a kill on Eldgrim. He now boosts Agga for the rest of the game. I move Axentia out and take an immolation, readying it for next round. AgentWard moved up some Children of the Dark Star too.

Rd 2 - I was hoping for initiative as I had a good spot for Axentia to land between three children, but I lost initiative and MBS was taken out a Dark Star. I was able to take out a couple Dark Star on my next two turns, but did not get any immolation damage in. Legos and Marcus re-positioned, but did not do any damage. Immolation was 0/6 this round.

Rd 3 - I lose a turn with Axentia from spreading madness, but was able to move Marcu and engage Agga-Zemir. I lost a few Legos here from Dark Star and Otherwordly Stench (really cool ability). Axentia took out a Dark Star. Legos take out a few Dark Star.

Rd 4 - lost initiative, spreading madness on legos (placing on Marcus). Marcus takes some damage (I think he has taken some earlier too). Axentia moves to engage with Agga-Zemir and a Dark Star, immolation takes out a dark star 1/3. Z'Thoth moves in and uses maddening visage on Marcus (no wound). By this time I have a couple legos engaged with Agga and a couple with Z-Thoth. I put a few wounds on Z'Thoth but none on Agga. Marcus takes a wound from MV but survives the special attack. I only get a turn with Marcus (spreading madness), I think I put a wound on Z'Thoth.

Rd 5 - I win initiative (first time) and start with Legos. I am able to get a lucky roll and put three wounds on Z'Thoth. Agga uses MV again, but it affects my (X marker). Axentia goes down with a 5 skull roll from Agga (one Dark Star had been sitting on the Yngvild glyph for a few rounds). Axentia puts a wound on Agga from Pheonix Rising. Axentia puts wounds on Agga and my Legos with Marcus survive a turn from Z'Thoth. Marcus then gets killed at the end of the round.

Rd 6 - I start with Legos but cannot finish off Agga or Z'Thoth. Agga uses SM again but it is on the X marker again. Axentia takes 4 wounds from Agga, then one from leaving engagement, and engages with Z'Thoth but does not land a wound. Z'Thoth finishes off Axentia. I lose my last OM and Z'Thoth takes out a lego.

Rd 7 - Agga has 2 lives left, Z'Thoth has 1 life and one Dark Star for AgentWard. I have some Legos left and Marcu. I finish off Agga with Legos and lose Marcu and maybe a Lego to Z'Thoth. Then lose my last OM to Marcu from Spreading Madness.

Rd 8 - Two Legos survive a special from Z'Thoth then Legos finish Z'Thoth off and final Dark Star goes down soon after for the end of the match.

Playtesting Units:
Axentia - Immolation only fired twice (once self damage) so I think the total was 2/9. Axentia went down after a few high skull attacks, but was able to take out a figure a turn with regular attacks when activated. The high health after phoenix rising (that put a wound on a hero) was helpful in surviving and putting pressure on AgentWard's heroes late in the game. I will be interested in trying Axentia with the changes, but as it is before that it is a bit overpowered, especially the 14 total life. Immolation was basically a non-factor in this match.

Agga-Zemir - Though not as powerful as Z'Thoth for a unique outsider, it does activate "Sign of the Outer Gods and can use the rerolls from fallen Dark Stars. I thought its ability spreading madness was pretty cool and did affect the game three times. I lose one turn to it (dead Marcu) and also lost the bonding with Legos on one occasion and a turn with Axentia on another. I lucked out two other times when the random OM was on my X. Its high attack (boosted with the glyph) helped it take out some Legos and put damage on both Marcus and Axentia.

Overall great game and some interesting moments with both new figures.

[flameslayer93]

Round 2 vs Dok

from dok
flameslayer and I starting now. Voice in the HS online discord. I have the gobbos, flameslayer has my ants and Axentia.

EDIT: I picked up the win. The slashers were extremely effective at keeping the ants from getting too many engagements, limiting their effectiveness. Meanwhile Axentia, after taking out John in 1 turn, was stuck getting based by George repeatedly and never got to Raelin. (Paul and Ringo didn't do much.)

flameslayer resigned when George killed Axentia the first time. At that point it was 9 ants and a mostly-negated Axentia against 14 slashers, Raelin, and 3 Bugbears (2 of them unwounded).

Gobbos were hella fun to play and are really strong on lava maps due to the flexibility of strategic retreat. It is kind of funny to get caught in a bad spot because you unengage yourself. The Bashers give you even more reasons to think about positioning with their attack boost and with expendable rabble (although rabble never came into play).

Axentia kind of got stuck in a bad spot and never really got going in this one. Raelin had lava in front and gobbos in the back* so Axentia coulldn't get at her. Still, 7 life is a lot.

Bonding Gobbos are strong, and Axentia has a hard time dealing damage for a figure who is 180 points. Immolate may need either an easier roll, or not affect her. I was banking on her burning up some goblins, but I put her in a bad spot. Exploding and rebirth was nice, but the game had been lost for awhile at that stage of the game.

Round 3 vs Dysole (playtesting units changes used)

I won that game, since Dysole didn't realize that Goblin Strategic Retreat is basically full on bonding, even if the Goblins didn't retreat. I used this relatively unfair advantage to tear through her Vipers, and Axentia didn't stand much of a chance either, especially with the nerfed Life.

I only used Expendable Rabble once, to protect a Basher from getting 3 wounds (killed dead) from Axentia so that he could enjoy the +2 attack from Bash. I used Goblin Attack Bonus quite a bit, and Bashed quite a bit.

Thoughts:
Axentia is not good. 12 Life is cool, but she doesn't deal enough damage. An easier roll for Immolate or not killing her from it would help, but even something simpler like +1 to attack might help.

Bugbear Basher is a mite too cheap for what you get. As a (un)common bonding option, spamming him is too good of an option over other goblin heroes, including Koggo or Urk. His attack bonus isn't quite as busted as the Swog Rider, but he also has staying power and a nice punch too. If the bonding power was scaled back though, he would probably be fine.

Goblin Slashers are a wild ballgame. They are pretty thematic, weaving in and out of battle, attacking whatever, but ultimately relying on somebody else to get the job done. Gotta say, after 3 games I'm not a fan of what is basically straight up bonding though. It would be cool if they only got the bonding if they actually retreated (although vs most melee that's pretty easy to accomplish anyway). An alternate, less design focused variant would simply be to up their cost. Although in my first two games, Raelin was not essential, I suspect in my game vs Dysole not having her would have tipped the scales in her favor more.

[kevindola]

Please let me know if you will require an extension on your Round 3 game due to Online Con Events. More than happy to work around that. Thanks!

[Muskie]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Round 2 vs Dok

Bonding Gobbos are strong, and Axentia has a hard time dealing damage for a figure who is 180 points. Immolate may need either an easier roll, or not affect her. I was banking on her burning up some goblins, but I put her in a bad spot. Exploding and rebirth was nice, but the game had been lost for awhile at that stage of the game.

Round 3 vs Dysole (playtesting units changes used)

I won that game, since Dysole didn't realize that Goblin Strategic Retreat is basically full on bonding, even if the Goblins didn't retreat. I used this relatively unfair advantage to tear through her Vipers, and Axentia didn't stand much of a chance either, especially with the nerfed Life.

I only used Expendable Rabble once, to protect a Basher from getting 3 wounds (killed dead) from Axentia so that he could enjoy the +2 attack from Bash. I used Goblin Attack Bonus quite a bit, and Bashed quite a bit.

Thoughts:
Axentia is not good. 12 Life is cool, but she doesn't deal enough damage. An easier roll for Immolate or not killing her from it would help, but even something simpler like +1 to attack might help.

Bugbear Basher is a mite too cheap for what you get. As a (un)common bonding option, spamming him is too good of an option over other goblin heroes, including Koggo or Urk. His attack bonus isn't quite as busted as the Swog Rider, but he also has staying power and a nice punch too. If the bonding power was scaled back though, he would probably be fine.

Goblin Slashers are a wild ballgame. They are pretty thematic, weaving in and out of battle, attacking whatever, but ultimately relying on somebody else to get the job done. Gotta say, after 3 games I'm not a fan of what is basically straight up bonding though. It would be cool if they only got the bonding if they actually retreated (although vs most melee that's pretty easy to accomplish anyway). An alternate, less design focused variant would simply be to up their cost. Although in my first two games, Raelin was not essential, I suspect in my game vs Dysole not having her would have tipped the scales in her favor more.

Could you explain how strategic retreat is an auto bonding? I read it that you have to have none engaged to move a hero. Am I reading it wrong? I played them once and got crushed by the Cathar because I had to disengage. Thanks!

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by coachmuskie

Could you explain how strategic retreat is an auto bonding? I read it that you have to have none engaged to move a hero. Am I reading it wrong? I played them once and got crushed by the Cathar because I had to disengage. Thanks!

Because they don't take disengagement attacks. So here's an example. If I am facing off against Knights or something similar. I kill a knight or two with goblins, but I still have 2 engaged. So I move those two onto a nearby glyph and height, and move up a bugbear hero and attack with him. So they're free to reposition and can move up a hero. If you're against Cathar/other engagement strike things, it can be bad with constant repositioning, but other armies they're pretty good against.

[Dysole]

According to what I've heard, they get to bond as long as none of them are engaged after the retreat. But apparently, they can trigger the retreat regardless of whether or not any are engaged at the start of the retreat or even if there weren't any engaged at all during the turn. I don't particularly like this and think there's a lot more value in making them have to have at least one goblin engaged to use the power.

~Dysole, glad she's not the only one finding this confusing and weird