The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Pumpkin_King]

Hi folks. We've been hard at work on Clayton in the discord server, trying to get him to a point where everyone will enjoy him. Let us know what you think of the latest version. This version has been playtested twice, and a very similar version has been playtested 4-5 times before that.

[Scytale]

Why is Posse complicated? It's a lot of details to make it so that the Lawmen move after Clayton, but I don't see why that's important. Just make it a form of movement bonding where the Lawmen move first.

I do not like how Shootout triggers off of other army cards. That's not only not very 'Scapy, it's also dangerous rules territory. It would be much cleaner and simpler if it was only on Clayton's card, which is where many of your order markers will be anyway because of Posse.

I am also against the use for 4 clear sight spaces as the restriction for numbers. You can fit a ton of figures within 4 clear sight spaces, and both Posse and Shootout can activate all of them. That's nuts, especially if we ever make a common Lawman hero. Just use the normal numbers limitation, and I suggest dropping the distance restriction. It feels more thematic if they don't need to be standing nearby to fight.

[Pumpkin_King]

With Posse, we were trying to avoid triggering Shootout on the same turn as Posse. Requiring that Clayton take a normal turn with Posse precludes Shootout, though I suppose him taking a normal turn could happen before or after. We also wanted to distance Posse from simple Omegacron-style movement bonding, since “sameness” seemed to be a sticking point.

With Shootout triggering off of other cards, we were also specifically trying to spread OMs around, also to avoid comparisons to Omegacron/Lao Xin. In our view, spreading markers around was a feature, not a bug.

With the number of Lawmen activated by either ability, we could absolutely restrict it to Umique Heroes, but also remember that Shootout has an obvious failstate, and the likelihood of whiffing an attack roll increases the more attacks you make.

[superfrog]

If there was a common cowboy being developed in the C3V, this would have to work alongside that design...

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

With Posse, we were trying to avoid triggering Shootout on the same turn as Posse. Requiring that Clayton take a normal turn with Posse precludes Shootout, though I suppose him taking a normal turn could happen before or after.

Ah, I see. A "before taking a turn" power would not conflict with an "instead of taking a turn" power.

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

We also wanted to distance Posse from simple Omegacron-style movement bonding, since “sameness” seemed to be a sticking point.

Making a unit like this is sameness, regardless of detail differences. Do not force small differences just for the sake of difference.

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

With Shootout triggering off of other cards, we were also specifically trying to spread OMs around, also to avoid comparisons to Omegacron/Lao Xin. In our view, spreading markers around was a feature, not a bug.

Making a power that changes how other cards work is messy at best, and potentially problematic, especially if we start giving Lawmen "before taking a turn" powers. I appreciate and support the desire to have players spread order markers around, but this just comes off as forced. If Shootout was on Clayton, and you dropped the "must take a turn with this Lawman first" restriction, you'd have the same power but simpler. The order marker spread thing is tacked on to that.

A faction design that requires or at least encourages a spread of order markers would be fantastic, but has to be a natural part of the faction. It also somewhat goes against the whole "leader" concept in general.

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

With the number of Lawmen activated by either ability, we could absolutely restrict it to Umique Heroes, but also remember that Shootout has an obvious failstate, and the likelihood of whiffing an attack roll increases the more attacks you make.

Restricting this design to only help Uniques is probably a mistake. He's supposed to be a posse leader, after all.

There is a natural limiter for Shootout, which is nice and may be good enough. You still have insane board control with your mass movement, too much to fly with me. Just the fact there aren't many Lawmen units is not a sufficient argument; I don't want to have to stop making Lawmen at some point to avoid making Clayton too good.

[BiggaBullfrog]

I feel like Clayton is in need of some restraint right now. He can let you move an army of Unique Lawmen in one turn, and lets you attack with that whole army in a turn as well (granted, not the same turn). I really dislike not having actual numbered restraints here as it means that every Lawman in the future will have to be below a certain power level with how much freedom this design would give, especially where one card right now is essentially giving you two attacks of 2, one attack of 3, and two Shotgun SA's in the same turn (and only 270 points). I'm not against Lawman synergy at all, but I feel this is too much.

Personally, I'd prefer if the design focused more on Posse or more on Shootout, and made the other power much weaker. I think Shootout is a cool thematic power in concept, and could see a strong version of that with a weak version of Posse (or no Posse -- the part of me that loves careful play would really enjoy an army that requires careful positioning setup with a strong attack payout).

I'm also not a huge fan of the current limiter on Shootout -- I don't see why someone blanking a roll means everyone puts up their guns thematically.

edit -- also, like super frog mentioned, I think any potential future common lawmen should be a consideration to add to the design as well.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

Hi folks. We've been hard at work on Clayton in the discord server, trying to get him to a point where everyone will enjoy him. Let us know what you think of the latest version. This version has been playtested twice, and a very similar version has been playtested 4-5 times before that.

And I've been remiss in not helping present Clayton to the public. I've been one of the contributors on Discord, as well as playtesting Clayton, so I need to step up and help answer questions in here as well.

Originally Posted by Scytale

1) Why is Posse complicated? It's a lot of details to make it so that the Lawmen move after Clayton, but I don't see why that's important. Just make it a form of movement bonding where the Lawmen move first.

2) I do not like how Shootout triggers off of other army cards. That's not only not very 'Scapy, it's also dangerous rules territory. It would be much cleaner and simpler if it was only on Clayton's card, which is where many of your order markers will be anyway because of Posse.

3) I am also against the use for 4 clear sight spaces as the restriction for numbers. You can fit a ton of figures within 4 clear sight spaces, and both Posse and Shootout can activate all of them. That's nuts, especially if we ever make a common Lawman hero. Just use the normal numbers limitation, and I suggest dropping the distance restriction. It feels more thematic if they don't need to be standing nearby to fight.

1) It's movement bonding with the movement happening at the end so thematically Clayton leads the Posse (note that it should be called Sheriff's Posse) rather than follows it. Literally the only difference between leading and following is changing "after" to "before". Changing it would be the same amount of complexity, but with a much weaker theme.

2) The bounds of what is 'scapey and what isn't exist differently inside all of our heads. That said, this is a deliberate choice to avoid yet another commander type figure that simply asks the player to dump all their order markers on it and make no other meaningful decisions (Ulginesh, Omegacron, Kantono, Master Lin, Deathcommander, Kurrok, etc, etc). By allowing Shootout to trigger off other figures, players actually have agency in round-to-round planning (in fact, Guilty McCreech becomes the best Shootout starter since he has 4 dice to the other Lawmen's 3, introducing risk that must be mitigated because Guilty is also the most fragile). Posse is also once per round, so that hardly makes Clayton a place for "many of your order markers" on its own.

3) I agree with this and have suggested shrinking the auras several times. I think 2 spaces on both Posse and Shootout would nicely limit their potential. I know there's a Common Lawman Hero in development in C3V, but I don't understand your comment as both Posse and Shootout specify Unique Lawman Heroes. So there's nothing nuts about it. Thematically, yes, there are fights taking place all over the board, but a Shootout, thematically, is a localized gunfight within the broader war.

Originally Posted by superfrog

If there was a common cowboy being developed in the C3V, this would have to work alongside that design...

It explicitly doesn't as a way of future-proofing. Without revealing specifics about C3V's development, I think there's actually exciting opportunity here for two different playstyles to emerge. I have in fact made a thematic suggestion for the Common Lawman, and will pop back in there after this post to take that one step further.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Ah, I see. A "before taking a turn" power would not conflict with an "instead of taking a turn" power.

If the editing department sees it that way, great, but we were trying to avoid confusion between both "before taking a turn" and "instead of taking a turn" on the same card.

Making a unit like this is sameness, regardless of detail differences. Do not force small differences just for the sake of difference.

I will echo @Pumpking_King 's frustration here: there is a long history of resistance to "sameness" and now we're being told "different for the sake of different" is a negative. Pick a lane. Outside of that, the choices we've made thus far have been driven by theme, and do feel correct in that regard on the battlefield. In fact, the theme here feels much more specifically like Lawmen, than say Kantono does Ninja.

Making a power that changes how other cards work is messy at best, and potentially problematic, especially if we start giving Lawmen "before taking a turn" powers. I appreciate and support the desire to have players spread order markers around, but this just comes off as forced. If Shootout was on Clayton, and you dropped the "must take a turn with this Lawman first" restriction, you'd have the same power but simpler. The order marker spread thing is tacked on to that.

A faction design that requires or at least encourages a spread of order markers would be fantastic, but has to be a natural part of the faction. It also somewhat goes against the whole "leader" concept in general.

Regardless of who the power can start with (just Clayton, or any Lawman), this may or may not have issues with other "before taking a turn" powers, because the shooters will be "taking turns in which they can only attack" per C3V precedent. Actually, the "can only attack" part should preclude any other special powers, so this seems to be a moo point*. Again, if the concept of a "leader" is "someone who eats all your order markers", that's just a recipe for more Ulgineshes, Omegacrons, Kantonos, Master Lins, Deathcommanders, Kurroks, etc. Clayton is always the leader of the Shootout because the power is on his card, making the other Lawmen incapable of such feats without his presence.

Restricting this design to only help Uniques is probably a mistake. He's supposed to be a posse leader, after all.

There is a natural limiter for Shootout, which is nice and may be good enough. You still have insane board control with your mass movement, too much to fly with me. Just the fact there aren't many Lawmen units is not a sufficient argument; I don't want to have to stop making Lawmen at some point to avoid making Clayton too good.

Restricting Clayton to only Uniques is future-proofing. There does not yet exist any other type of Lawman, and I think everyone agrees that Squads would seem like the most natural Posse and yet would be a terrible inclusion for balance. The limit of rolling skulls was something I resisted at first, but it plays well and leaves a 12.5% chance for the Shootout to end on any given shot (given 3 dice most often). Yes, there is some board control with Posse, but shrinking the aura would help address this (limiting their numbers while simultaneously putting the Lawmen in a much more concentrated area, which both lessens the amount of board they control and may make it difficult to achieve prime positions for future Shootouts) and I've also floated the idea of disallowing Clayton's attack during Posse movement if playtesting proves out there's still too much control.

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

I'm also not a huge fan of the current limiter on Shootout -- I don't see why someone blanking a roll means everyone puts up their guns thematically.

edit -- also, like super frog mentioned, I think any potential future common lawmen should be a consideration to add to the design as well.

Previously the limiter was inflicting wound which sounds more thematic, but is a colossal failure in practice as often you wouldn't get past the first shot, let alone feel like you were having a Shootout. As noted, I was against the anti-whiff version at first, but just testing it once convinced me that it plays really, really well. Clayton (as any SoV submission) is designed for the game that exists right now, so again see above comments about deliberately future-proofing against Common Lawmen.


*a moo point

Spoiler Alert!

a moo point

[Pumpkin_King]

Just chiming in to say that shrinking the aura on both Posse and Shootout is something we've been discussing in discord and (I think, not to speak for any one of the 4-ish people who work on it) it's something we've all agreed is probably the best option to assuage concerns of board control.

[caps]

This Clayton is a really interesting one.

[Pumpkin_King]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

Just chiming in to say that shrinking the aura on both Posse and Shootout is something we've been discussing in discord and (I think, not to speak for any one of the 4-ish people who work on it) it's something we've all agreed is probably the best option to assuage concerns of board control.

Also, yes, it should be Sheriff's Posse, not just Posse. An error on my part.

[superfrog]

"Work with" can mean a lot of things. I just mean that since both PK and NB can see the design I'm talking about, you should try to make sure that they don't overlap in bad ways.

I'm not saying you have to have this power work with common heroes as well. That could go badly, potentially.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

This Clayton is a really interesting one.

I'm loving this sheriff. It's just the kind of satisfyingly thematic synergy I would hope to see for a faction that pretty much begs to be developed.